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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Lord Valian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-10-17 16:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Valian
It just feels like CCP keeps doing everything they can to prevent people from utlizing stuff in 0.0 , maybe fix the afk cloakers first before you add more afk gameplay.

Anyway, why the f*** am I paying for POS guns if they refuse to shoot stuff that is interfering with my POS ? Speaking about POS guns, the whole pos management system has to be reworked because its awful, maybe you should have done that instead.

Maybe you could have added small refueling drones that warp and jump between systems refueling all your, corporations/alliances poses, which can be intercepted and killed?
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#102 - 2013-10-17 16:40:49 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:

With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?

Oh... right...

Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower.

It's called SCANNING, an activity that regular members often partake in. It involves flying through systems looking for some good signatures to run.

The thing that probably upsets you goons is that you don't really do that kind of stuff in the space where the moons are, which seems to indicate this change is rather a good one.

Nyan
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#103 - 2013-10-17 16:41:17 UTC
Vatek wrote:
Making these 20m3 in size and having no limit on how many can be placed on one tower is a horrible design decision. One pilot in a blockade runner could seed a nullsec region with hundreds of these and shut down all moon mining income until the owners of the towers show up to pos gun them all to death.

Then they can just go get more and do it again and again and again.
lol--that's the whole point!

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Leigh Akiga
Kuhri Innovations
#104 - 2013-10-17 16:41:22 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
pmchem wrote:
For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:

Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.

POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.

Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.

Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.


Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.


oh wait I get to laugh in your face directly, neat!

You're suggesting that the POS owner has muitiple people logged in to fleet and on-grid at POS 23 hours a day in order to defeat one individual who appears at a random time once or twice a day. So, let's say 69-character-hours per day played in order to defeat 3-character-minutes. That is surely good gameplay and sustainable! Let's also mention the fact that the attackers have d-scan and local and can check for traps before even attempting to launch the siphon! Or that if you're using a covert cloaker or Rubicon interceptor you're amazingly difficult to kill anyway unless totally incompetent, even if landing on grid with hostiles! In short you're making a terrible argument and do not know how this game plays out.


Clearly the intent of sovereignty is to have people available to babysit systems/moons 23.5/7 Roll
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#105 - 2013-10-17 16:41:23 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:

Thank you for the clairification.

Now I can lean back and enjoy POS owner tears as they now have to do more than stop by once a week to spend 3 minutes interacting with their ISK printing press. Cool

The issue here is that there are only two real forms of alliance income: moons, and renters. Renters have lead to a terribly boring 0.0 where every few months we relentlessly sodomize N3, who then retreats back to their bad space that's all rented out. All this does is make renters even more necessary, which makes it even more necessary to own all the bad regions to rent them out instead of those serving as alliance incubators.


Well from now on, in order to conquer most of the nullsec, you will need to change the strategy of blobbing everyone.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Dagda Morr
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#106 - 2013-10-17 16:41:40 UTC
Something that has been missed - the best organised large groups in 0.0 are the very groups that are able to mass spam regions on the hour with these. This isn't a tool to help the small guy take a poke at the big guys - it's not going to generate content, it's just going to make the dullest thing in eve even duller.....
Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#107 - 2013-10-17 16:41:47 UTC
Looks interesting and should hopefully add some fun to the game and make people patrol their space/POS more.

However while I hate to be the negative one all the time... we're only getting small ones with the initial release, where has all the development time for this expansion gone?
We're already looking at a lacking expansion in regards to content and not some of that content isn't even going to make it into the full release. Evil

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#108 - 2013-10-17 16:42:08 UTC
AND THE GOONS BECAME WHAT THEY MOCKED

Nyan
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-10-17 16:42:43 UTC
I don't think people in this thread realize we might be the least impacted of any null-sec entity. We have already planned for this possibility. The people that will be hurt by this are the guys without rental empires. Size doesn't matter. Organization does.

We are the ones that are going to be spamming these across regions. While choking off the supply that we happen to sit on the lions share of. You can think this is about us, but I would point to our track record of doing what is best for EVE. This is far more about the imbalance of the design. The design is flawed on cost vs reward to a huge degree.

I would rather see 50m a siphon but 10 is absurdly low. It is all about hours to earnback. That should be balanced in such a way that the defender and attacker have a reasonable chance of damaging each other. ISK wise.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#110 - 2013-10-17 16:42:48 UTC
mynnna wrote:


Except even in that case there is material destroyed. You lose twelve percent of your mined output, PERIOD, no matter what. So if someone drops one of these before I leave for work, I get punished for having a job. If they do it before I go to sleep, I get punished for sleeping. Or hell, if they live in AUTZ and I'm in USTZ I get punished just because they're in a different timezone. The theft isn't irrecoverable, but the destruction is.


Flip that around?

What if you live in AUTZ and they live in USTZ. They spend 100m to drop 10 of these in a system, and log out to go to bed. You log in, check your POS's, blap the 10 siphons before they have a chance to do anything. Then isn't it him getting punished for different timezone and sleeping? What if he drops them before going to work but you have that day off, and you blap the siphons before they have a chance to do anything but he isn't going to notice for at least 10 hours or so. Is he getting punished for having a job?

There are multiple situations in EVE currently where people can get unlucky with timing based on having RL issues or commitments. So guess what.
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2013-10-17 16:44:26 UTC  |  Edited by: pmchem
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
pmchem wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
pmchem wrote:
For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:

Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.

POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.

Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.

Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.


Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.


oh wait I get to laugh in your face directly, neat!

You're suggesting that the POS owner has muitiple people logged in to fleet and on-grid at POS 23 hours a day in order to defeat one individual who appears at a random time once or twice a day. So, let's say 69-character-hours per day played in order to defeat 3-character-minutes. That is surely good gameplay and sustainable! Let's also mention the fact that the attackers have d-scan and local and can check for traps before even attempting to launch the siphon! Or that if you're using a covert cloaker or Rubicon interceptor you're amazingly difficult to kill anyway unless totally incompetent, even if landing on grid with hostiles! In short you're making a terrible argument and do not know how this game plays out.


Than you won't hold lowsec POSs or those in NPC nullsec. Sry bro for your delicious tears, but you are to stretched.
And tnx for the moon goo
BALEX, lowsec pirate corp.


The afk cloaking will happen _everywhere_ there is a R64 -- not just near NPC stations. Also, my personal income does not rely on moons at all. No tears -- just calling shots. I've ripped on CCP game design similarly in the past, even when I had a vested interest in something being overpowered (see old titan balance threads). I guess CCP will get a few more PLEX off the Jita market from dudes subbing those alts. The real goal of this game design?

I'm all in favor of asymmetric gameplay, but AFK cloaking is terrible gameplay for everyone (HURRR I LOGIN A CHARACTER, CLOAK, AND DO NOTHING WHILE AT WORK ALL DAY THIS IS A GREAT GAME) and this feature highly rewards it.

edit: p.s. it's awesome that you immediately flip-flopped from "live in the space" to "oh nevermind it's impossible"

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#112 - 2013-10-17 16:44:58 UTC
would be awesome if it could be placed outside point/web range of pos'es, perhaps later versions can be placed further away? (placed so it's still within turret range, but in range where one can go scoop, and warp, even if getting shot a little by the pos)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Jeanne Hilanen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#113 - 2013-10-17 16:45:01 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:

With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?

Oh... right...

Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower.


What a bunch of bullshit. it takes less than a minute to dscan check a system. If you have people actually LIVING in a system, you can very quickly spot these
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2013-10-17 16:46:11 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:

Just lol...

Ohhhh...My first 10 urns are capped. Need more for these Goons tears.


I believe this post, and the Marlona posts, make my point quite well. There's no solid arguments about why these are well-balanced being presented. The sole argument being presented is the same one we always see when a goon is correctly pointing out something that's unbalanced: some nitwit saying, well, the above. You saw it with blap titans, for example.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Callic Veratar
#115 - 2013-10-17 16:46:22 UTC
With a max 50km deploy range, you'll always be in the range of POS guns when you deploy the syphon. You can't cloak while locked and interceptors have almost no tank. Not sure how AFK cloaking is a problem here.
Sasha Angelis
Tax Evasion Corp 5347
#116 - 2013-10-17 16:46:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sasha Angelis
Orion Moonstar wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
[...]

Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.


So, can I pay PLEX somewhere to disable API and mail notifications when a POS is anchored in someone's space? Can we get the API to lie about corp history, wallet transactions, what players on an account, etc?


^ This

I really dont like where this is going ...

Callic Veratar wrote:
With a max 50km deploy range, you'll always be in the range of POS guns when you deploy the syphon. You can't cloak while locked and interceptors have almost no tank. Not sure how AFK cloaking is a problem here.

Reading the blog: There is no anchoring/onlining time.
Warp in.
Rightclick > Deploy
Warp out.

5s at max. POS modules take much longer to lock in frigates.
The Warfish
Goats Unlimited
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#117 - 2013-10-17 16:47:07 UTC
Will destroyed Siphons result in a Structure Killmail, a la POS Modules?

If not, it should.
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#118 - 2013-10-17 16:47:11 UTC
pmchem wrote:
I'm all in favor of asymmetric gameplay, but AFK cloaking is terrible gameplay for everyone (HURRR I LOGIN A CHARACTER, CLOAK, AND DO NOTHING WHILE AT WORK ALL DAY THIS IS A GREAT GAME) and this feature highly rewards it.

If you don't have someone doing a scan for sigs in your system every 3 hours or so, why should you get any moon goo? Clearly you're just sitting on deserted space.

I was under the impression that was one of the things broken with EVE; lots of deserted space.

Nyan
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#119 - 2013-10-17 16:47:45 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:

It's called SCANNING, an activity that regular members often partake in. It involves flying through systems looking for some good signatures to run.

The thing that probably upsets you goons is that you don't really do that kind of stuff in the space where the moons are, which seems to indicate this change is rather a good one.

See, this is the caliber of person that supports this: the kind that thinks that scanning for sigs or anoms is the same kind of scanning that would turn up a siphon.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2013-10-17 16:48:02 UTC
Jeanne Hilanen wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:

With so many thousands of people, don't you have people flying through the space in which you have POS'es?

Oh... right...

Yes. We do. Those thousands of people are never on grid with a mining pos because they have no reason to be. That's my point. Those thousands of people, using our space, do not actually provide any meaningful advantage over an alt left logged out in the tower.


What a bunch of bullshit. it takes less than a minute to dscan check a system. If you have people actually LIVING in a system, you can very quickly spot these


Not before they have been profitable in the middle of a timezone you sleep in.

Most corporations (the unit of measurement typically owning a system) are generally strong in a single timezone. I have no issue with requiring people to live in their space as we have been the biggest champions of that. Requiring them to check their towers 3x a day is dumb as hell though. EVE is enough of a job as it is.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.