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Honor in Modern Combat
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ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#41 - 2011-11-14 21:13:42 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Which is why flying solo or in incredibly small squads tends to breed skilled pilots
In my experience, self-professed "highly skilled pilots" are about the worst pilots you can get into a fleet. Not only do they do about as many mistakes as the average rookie, contrary to the average rookie they also think so highly of themselves that they tend to ignore advice and refuse to learn.


Having been doing some fleet combat the last few weeks, with a few other people who consider themselves very good at "small gang combat", and I have to say I agree with you. I don't understand why someone would ever consider themselves too good to follow simple orders like "align, hold, jump, and most importantly don't agress", but it seems plenty do.

Not to say all of them lack humility, and refuse to learn from their mistakes but anyone who continues to point to themselves as someone amazing at something, is generally suspect in this department.
Sovai Elaaren
KABS Deep Recon Unit
#42 - 2011-11-14 21:22:09 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:


And tell me of this strange fantasy land you occupy in which you aren't already daily sending hundreds and thousands of people to their deaths, both in enemy ships and your own losses?




The difference lies in the intent and the target. I don't kill to preserve or enhance my honor or to simply gain reputation for my own glorification. I fight to protect the Minmatar Republic from it's enemies, to free the same space of pirates who kill for greed, and I rise to the defense of my allies in the same causes.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#43 - 2011-11-14 21:34:05 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:

My honor is worth taking the lives of others, and worth the lives of others dying in its defense.

Then let the crews decide for themselves if they will defend your honor.

Silas Vitalia wrote:


Why should this be any different for us?



Because we should be able and mature enough to settle matters of honor between ourselves alone, without outside involvement. Surely one as powerful as a capsuleer can do this, no?
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-11-14 21:39:26 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Silas Vitalia wrote:

My honor is worth taking the lives of others, and worth the lives of others dying in its defense.

Then let the crews decide for themselves if they will defend your honor.

Silas Vitalia wrote:


Why should this be any different for us?



Because we should be able and mature enough to settle matters of honor between ourselves alone, without outside involvement. Surely one as powerful as a capsuleer can do this, no?



Ah, so by this rationale all leaders of nation-states are 'immature' for allowing others to fight in their stead? For allowing wars amongst their proxies? Presidents, CEOs, Emperors, all immature and should settle their issues in direct one-to-one combat?

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#45 - 2011-11-14 21:47:42 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:

Ah, so by this rationale all leaders of nation-states are 'immature' for allowing others to fight in their stead? For allowing wars amongst their proxies? Presidents, CEOs, Emperors, all immature and should settle their issues in direct one-to-one combat?


I'm not saying they, by their own merits, are immature. I'm saying we, as functionally immortal capsuleers, can choose to do better. If we don't choose to do better, in fact, we'll deplete the population of the entire cluster in squabbles amongst ourselves.

We, like any other humans, have infinite wants. We also do not die in a fiery explosion whenever our ships go down, or get assassinated, or voted out of office, so our demand for crews (human lives) to replace those of lost ships is insatiable. Surely you see the mathematical, if not moral, issues with this...
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-11-16 18:39:06 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Silas Vitalia wrote:

Ah, so by this rationale all leaders of nation-states are 'immature' for allowing others to fight in their stead? For allowing wars amongst their proxies? Presidents, CEOs, Emperors, all immature and should settle their issues in direct one-to-one combat?


I'm not saying they, by their own merits, are immature. I'm saying we, as functionally immortal capsuleers, can choose to do better. If we don't choose to do better, in fact, we'll deplete the population of the entire cluster in squabbles amongst ourselves.

We, like any other humans, have infinite wants. We also do not die in a fiery explosion whenever our ships go down, or get assassinated, or voted out of office, so our demand for crews (human lives) to replace those of lost ships is insatiable. Surely you see the mathematical, if not moral, issues with this...



A temperate planet can easily support a population in excess of 6 billion with basic infrastructure, industrialized worlds could support 10. There is no shortage of ground pounders to crew our vessels, nor will there be in the future.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2011-11-16 19:20:17 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Silas Vitalia wrote:

My honor is worth taking the lives of others, and worth the lives of others dying in its defense.

Then let the crews decide for themselves if they will defend your honor.

Silas Vitalia wrote:


Why should this be any different for us?



Because we should be able and mature enough to settle matters of honor between ourselves alone, without outside involvement. Surely one as powerful as a capsuleer can do this, no?



Ah, so by this rationale all leaders of nation-states are 'immature' for allowing others to fight in their stead? For allowing wars amongst their proxies? Presidents, CEOs, Emperors, all immature and should settle their issues in direct one-to-one combat?


Generally, unless you are evolving in banana regimes, citizens are supposed to fight not for the hubris or honor of their leaders, but for the system or abstract entities, be it for the democracy, the throne, the state, or the tribes.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#48 - 2011-11-16 19:50:02 UTC
Aiwha wrote:


A temperate planet can easily support a population in excess of 6 billion with basic infrastructure, industrialized worlds could support 10. There is no shortage of ground pounders to crew our vessels, nor will there be in the future.


To put it simply, every lost crew member represents:


  • a lost family member, on the norm
  • a lost investment (in training, pay, experience, etc)
  • an opportunity cost (crew member could have gone on to do greater things)
  • a lost human life


And you're telling me it's fine to just use these people like throw-away tools?

Huh uh. Fly frigates, and modify them if they require crews to the point that they'll not need crews. Settle scores with that.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#49 - 2011-11-16 20:26:51 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Aiwha wrote:


A temperate planet can easily support a population in excess of 6 billion with basic infrastructure, industrialized worlds could support 10. There is no shortage of ground pounders to crew our vessels, nor will there be in the future.


To put it simply, every lost crew member represents:


  • a lost family member, on the norm
  • a lost investment (in training, pay, experience, etc)
  • an opportunity cost (crew member could have gone on to do greater things)
  • a lost human life


And you're telling me it's fine to just use these people like throw-away tools?

Huh uh. Fly frigates, and modify them if they require crews to the point that they'll not need crews. Settle scores with that.


I have some lovely cheese to go with that whine. Stop pretending you have anything in common with those people.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Altarr Orkot
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#50 - 2011-11-16 22:03:53 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
To put it simply, every lost crew member represents:


  • a lost family member, on the norm
  • a lost investment (in training, pay, experience, etc)
  • an opportunity cost (crew member could have gone on to do greater things)
  • a lost human life


And you're telling me it's fine to just use these people like throw-away tools?

Huh uh. Fly frigates, and modify them if they require crews to the point that they'll not need crews. Settle scores with that.


While people dying isn't great, crews do know exactly what they're signing up for when they work for capsuleers. If you truly, truly care about people that much maybe being part of a paramilitary organisation that kills people isn't for you?
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#51 - 2011-11-16 22:37:27 UTC
The difference between a war and a duel seems to be lost to quite a few people here.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#52 - 2011-11-16 22:46:00 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
The difference between a war and a duel seems to be lost to quite a few people here.


Wars are duels, dear. What is a duel but a contest of wills? What is a war but such a contest on a grander scale?

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#53 - 2011-11-16 22:52:04 UTC
A "yes" would have been shorter.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#54 - 2011-11-16 23:54:15 UTC
Altarr Orkot wrote:
If you truly, truly care about people that much maybe being part of a paramilitary organisation that kills people isn't for you?


As Arkady pointed out, there is now conflation between dueling and waging war. War is a much different beast. I speak here of the one-on-one settling of disputes between capsuleers by way of space combat, with much emphasis being placed on the "one-on-one" aspect.

As for the war...I fight for the people I've come to love and know as "kin". And that's that.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#55 - 2011-11-16 23:56:06 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Stop pretending you have anything in common with those people.


Rek Jaiga wrote:

[...]the people I've come to love and know as "kin".


That should clear things up pretty well..
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2011-11-17 00:27:06 UTC
Silas Vitalia,

It is respectable to preserve your honor. But not only is it ironically dishonorable and frankly abhorable to kill innocents for the sake of your own honor when you are perfectly capable of piloting yourself (as you should in a duel, that's the point of it being a duel), by so blatantly placing the value of your honor over the lives of your crew, you smear your own reputation.

If you are not strong enough to preserve your own honor in a duel for satisfaction between you and another pilot (this is completely hypothetical: I'm not saying you aren't), it is better to admit so and respect your opponent for being superior rather than living in shame having abused the trust of your crew and fought a duel under unfair circumstances.

By saying you are willing to kill thousands of your own crew members (and yes: by choosing to bring them willingly knowing they will die, you are killing them yourself) to preserve your own honor, I wonder if you have any to preserve in the first place.

It is impractical, dishonorable and inhumane to use large crews in duels when you are perfectly capable of restoring your honor in a less costly (for others uninvolved in petty squabbles between capsuleers) manner.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#57 - 2011-11-17 05:26:03 UTC
Jason Galente,

It's about the stakes, dear.

As you are aware we are essentially immortal. We cannot easily inflict physical harm on one another. We instead inflict suffering on our enemies indirectly.... on their friends, on their reputations, or work to destroy their influence and effectiveness against us. It is a grand and deadly game we all play, to influence, hinder, and support one another.

Winning a duel in my opinion matters nothing if nothing was actually at stake. For many capsuleers this therefore means that either lives or money must be in the equation.

If you lose a cheaply-fitted frigate in a duel, you won't exactly be losing any sleep over it.

If you lose a pirate battleship worth more than a billion ISk and several thousand crew members along with it, then you might suffer for the loss.

Nothing risked, nothing won. In general, solo-piloted frigates are children's toys.






Sabik now, Sabik forever
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-11-17 05:49:27 UTC
Jason Galente wrote:

By saying you are willing to kill thousands of your own crew members (and yes: by choosing to bring them willingly knowing they will die, you are killing them yourself) to preserve your own honor, I wonder if you have any to preserve in the first place.

It is impractical, dishonorable and inhumane to use large crews in duels when you are perfectly capable of restoring your honor in a less costly (for others uninvolved in petty squabbles between capsuleers) manner.


As you are new around here I'll be kind, although you might wish to do some homework on me.

I've killed many score more than that for less.

True Amarrians do not take lessons on morality from those not of the blood. How to put this nicely.... it would be anathema for one such as myself to take moral or spiritual succor from a heathen half-breed. Your opinion is duly noted, however.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-11-17 05:51:07 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Jason Galente,

It's about the stakes, dear.

As you are aware we are essentially immortal. We cannot easily inflict physical harm on one another. We instead inflict suffering on our enemies indirectly.... on their friends, on their reputations, or work to destroy their influence and effectiveness against us. It is a grand and deadly game we all play, to influence, hinder, and support one another.

Winning a duel in my opinion matters nothing if nothing was actually at stake. For many capsuleers this therefore means that either lives or money must be in the equation.

If you lose a cheaply-fitted frigate in a duel, you won't exactly be losing any sleep over it.

If you lose a pirate battleship worth more than a billion ISk and several thousand crew members along with it, then you might suffer for the loss.

Nothing risked, nothing won. In general, solo-piloted frigates are children's toys.








Ms. Vitalia, your notion that there can be something tangible to be obtained from an honor duel confuses me.

These duels are supposed to be fought for satisfaction when one's honor, mettle, cause, or intelligence is insulted on a personal level. The only thing that is at stake is your own assertion that the person is wrong for having said what they did, and that by besting them in combat, you are asserting dominance over them and devaluating their claim, shaming them and punishing them for their impudence. There can be nothing else to it if it is to be a duel for honor, which was the topic of the discussion.

A Duel is not a war, a duel is a time honored tradition that can actually prevent war, if honored..

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2011-11-17 06:18:53 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:


As you are new around here I'll be kind, although you might wish to do some homework on me.

I've killed many score more than that for less.

True Amarrians do not take lessons on morality from those not of the blood. How to put this nicely.... it would be anathema for one such as myself to take moral or spiritual succor from a heathen half-breed. Your opinion is duly noted, however.



I was wondering how long I was going to have to wait before seeing a return to the sort of prideful remarks that make me regret agreeing with you on other matters.

But more to the point of this entire discussion, I would argue that the day you no longer feel a sense of loss over even one crew member is the day you should cloister yourself for reflection and introspection. If it takes the end of thousands of lives for something to be worth your concern then perhaps there are deeper issues to examine beyond any sense of honor among capsuleers.