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A plea for restraint for Kinhar's trial
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Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2013-10-17 14:20:12 UTC
It is good to know that some have never heard of a hate crime.

Meanwhile, a young man guilty of defending himself against three men who would do him harm simply because he was Matari is in prison, on trial. And best of all, toted around like some kind of political statement.

Look at how fair our system is.



If three men attacked me I would not hesitate to return the favor. Because he is able to defend himself somehow it is now 'unequal or unreasonable force.' I am sure his attackers would have not chased him if he had run. I am sure they would have never chosen to use any weapons at their disposal. I am sure they would have stayed their hands.

But what is the life of one more Brutor ruined?

What is one more act of justice changed to read 'legal.'


Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#62 - 2013-10-17 14:30:20 UTC
No, I'm serious. Who came up with the term "hate crime"? In the jurisdictions I've lived in, I've heard of "crimes motivated by racial discrimination" and variations of that word order.

I've never heard of "hate crime" before. Pretty sure it doesn't exist in the other empires, at least.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#63 - 2013-10-17 14:46:26 UTC
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
If three people attacked me, with obvious intent to do me harm on the basis of my ancestry alone, I would ask, nor expect, any quarter from them. I would be terrified, thinking irrationaly, angry, and so charged with adrenalyne that I would not be able to think, speak, or do much at all besides focus on defending myself and hurting my attackers.

Pieter, I dare say you might do the same. Why? Because this is what biology programs us to do in such an instance. The Brutor are trained in martial traditions from birth; doing what he did is probably as automatic for him as drawing breath for you or I.

We do not know the circumstances, true. However, this feels more and more like a political statement and less like any sort of actual justice process with every day which passes.


The law may upset reason but reason may never upset the law. Why? Because the law is the law and it applies equally to ALL that come under it's shelter and it's jurisdiction. A bad law ought to be changed, once it is known as being bad, but it should NOT be left in place to apply to some but not others. Now, that said, if he dropped those three assailants whilst they were engaged in attacking him (as might be the case for a highly trained martial artist) then he has likely committed no crime.

On the other hand, if he gave no quarter, because that's how he was raised, then he has broken both the spirit and the letter of the law. Perhaps the Brutor tribe ought to take note that we've moved on as a species from the days where defeated enemies were summarily slaughtered? If the Civre can do it then so can the Brutor - our early history was more brutal than even theirs.

However, I am NOT saying that this ISN'T a political statement, you may very well be right. It's just that the investigating authorities have actually DONE nothing wrong yet except, perhaps, for dragging their feet a little. Wait until the charges are preferred and the evidence is presented before surrendering to outrage or you might find yourself defending the indefensible.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#64 - 2013-10-17 14:50:59 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
It is good to know that some have never heard of a hate crime.

Meanwhile, a young man guilty of defending himself against three men who would do him harm simply because he was Matari is in prison, on trial. And best of all, toted around like some kind of political statement.

Look at how fair our system is.



If three men attacked me I would not hesitate to return the favor. Because he is able to defend himself somehow it is now 'unequal or unreasonable force.' I am sure his attackers would have not chased him if he had run. I am sure they would have never chosen to use any weapons at their disposal. I am sure they would have stayed their hands.

But what is the life of one more Brutor ruined?

What is one more act of justice changed to read 'legal.'


The concept of hate crimes never comes up very often in The State, but I HAVE heard of them - usually perpetrated upon those of Gallentean descent and usually perpetrated after some political event and too much alcohol.

In any case, we do not know what he has been charged with or why. I think people would be smart to await that information before making impassioned speeches in defence of they know not what.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Anslo
Scope Works
#65 - 2013-10-17 14:52:15 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
No, I'm serious. Who came up with the term "hate crime"? In the jurisdictions I've lived in, I've heard of "crimes motivated by racial discrimination" and variations of that word order.

I've never heard of "hate crime" before. Pretty sure it doesn't exist in the other empires, at least.

Doesn't exist?..

Are you shitting me right now?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#66 - 2013-10-17 15:20:54 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
No, I'm serious. Who came up with the term "hate crime"? In the jurisdictions I've lived in, I've heard of "crimes motivated by racial discrimination" and variations of that word order.

I've never heard of "hate crime" before. Pretty sure it doesn't exist in the other empires, at least.

Doesn't exist?..

Are you shitting me right now?


Why, pray tell, would you even find yourself in a situation where you would even think to ask Seriphyn if he was expelling you from his digestive tract?

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Anslo
Scope Works
#67 - 2013-10-17 15:23:53 UTC
I apologize for not expressing my disbelief at his statement in a more civilized manner. However, I prefer to utilize colorful metaphors in my discussions as they have become a charming part of my personality. So despite what more affluent, cultured, or authority figures may request of my postings....

I shall disregard the constabulary.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#68 - 2013-10-17 15:24:39 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
No, I'm serious. Who came up with the term "hate crime"? In the jurisdictions I've lived in, I've heard of "crimes motivated by racial discrimination" and variations of that word order.

I've never heard of "hate crime" before. Pretty sure it doesn't exist in the other empires, at least.

Doesn't exist?..

Are you shitting me right now?


No? I mean, I didn't know other empires had such rigid anti-discrimination laws that they'd even have the legal concept of "hate crime". Can an Amarr Commoner assault a Minmatar slave and get incarcerated on the grounds of a "hate crime"? I'm guessing it would more likely be on the grounds of assault on human property (or a more Amarr-appropiate term)

The Federation Constitution is a pretty exceptional and outstanding document (as in, an exception, not something awesome before I get hammered on). If it didn't have such stipulations, I imagine the millions of immigrants that come here each year wouldn't bother. Too bad no two people seem to read it in the same way! (or maybe that's a good thing?)
Matar Ronin
#69 - 2013-10-17 19:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Matar Ronin
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Considering the upper limit for ethnic Gallentean citizens is 35% of the total Federation population, and the estimated number for ethnic Minmatar citizens are 30%, it'd be hard-pressed to call them a 'minority'.

Seems like a word from the pre-spaceflight era, to be fair.
Someone please explain to this idiot what the definition of majority and minority is, please! When people start substituting their personal meanings conversation becomes unproductive. In a population split 51% to 49% the 49% would still be the minority. Being close does not alter the definition.

Racism is for the most part based in stupidity, so until stupidity is cured we'll have racism. Unless of course you are claiming we are both post racism and post stupidity. Which just using your posts as proof of, is clearly not yet achieved.

The entire lexicon is pre-spaceflight brainiac. The people of New Eden did not return to the stars, land and toss out their languages. Your attempts to evade the issue of racism and hate crimes fail. Just as they no doubt did during the pre-spaceflifght era.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#70 - 2013-10-17 19:50:40 UTC
Oh, you can shove your claim of idiot up your engine exhaust. If ethnic Gallente are 35% of the total population, then non-ethnic Gallente et al are 65%!

Guess what? The ethnic Gallente are a minority, too.
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#71 - 2013-10-17 20:00:00 UTC
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
If three people attacked me, with obvious intent to do me harm on the basis of my ancestry alone, I would ask, nor expect, any quarter from them. I would be terrified, thinking irrationaly, angry, and so charged with adrenalyne that I would not be able to think, speak, or do much at all besides focus on defending myself and hurting my attackers.

Pieter, I dare say you might do the same. Why? Because this is what biology programs us to do in such an instance. The Brutor are trained in martial traditions from birth; doing what he did is probably as automatic for him as drawing breath for you or I.

We do not know the circumstances, true. However, this feels more and more like a political statement and less like any sort of actual justice process with every day which passes.


This.

And this is why the Federation and us will never truly get along. Our concept of justice and theirs is so far different the moment you get into the details.

But I guess that's what you're asking for the moment you seek refuge in the Federation, over sticking to your guns at home.

Avoid violence and it'll chase you. Why? Because it's in your blood.

Some people just need a wake-up call.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...
Matar Ronin
#72 - 2013-10-17 20:09:25 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Oh, you can shove your claim of idiot up your engine exhaust. If ethnic Gallente are 35% of the total population, then non-ethnic Gallente et al are 65%!

Guess what? The ethnic Gallente are a minority, too.
Since you have your head firmly implanted in your exhaust I love that you suddenly understand the definition of the word minority now. Seems like you were not hard pressed to use it to define Ethnic Gallenete, you're only hard pressed to understand the definition when it applies to ethnic Minmatar.

See you're not stupid or racist .... um wait. Appears that you may well be.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-10-17 20:43:40 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Oh, you can shove your claim of idiot up your engine exhaust. If ethnic Gallente are 35% of the total population, then non-ethnic Gallente et al are 65%!

Guess what? The ethnic Gallente are a minority, too.
Since you have your head firmly implanted in your exhaust I love that you suddenly understand the definition of the word minority now. Seems like you were not hard pressed to use it to define Ethnic Gallenete, you're only hard pressed to understand the definition when it applies to ethnic Minmatar.

See you're not stupid or racist .... um wait. Appears that you may well be.


Confirming that you're not only a race baiter, but a race baiter that failed mathematics.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Matar Ronin
#74 - 2013-10-18 07:02:05 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Oh, you can shove your claim of idiot up your engine exhaust. If ethnic Gallente are 35% of the total population, then non-ethnic Gallente et al are 65%!

Guess what? The ethnic Gallente are a minority, too.
Since you have your head firmly implanted in your exhaust I love that you suddenly understand the definition of the word minority now. Seems like you were not hard pressed to use it to define Ethnic Gallenete, you're only hard pressed to understand the definition when it applies to ethnic Minmatar.

See you're not stupid or racist .... um wait. Appears that you may well be.


Confirming that you're not only a race baiter, but a race baiter that failed mathematics.
You make this too easy. Are you ever correct about anything?

Let's use the official demographic numbers for the Gallente Federation
30 to 35% Ethnic Gallente
30% Ethnic Minmatar
20% Ethnic Intaki
10 to 15% Ethnic Manar
5% Ethnic Jin Mei

Those are the published demographics. Let's see who is the majority Ethnic group in the Gallente Federation .... hmmm its the Ethnic Gallente, they are the one ethnic group with the largest percentage. They hold a majority as a group.

Unless all the other groups vote against them they hold power. One could argue no one has a commanding lead, but only a fool would call the majority ethnic group a minority. Which pretty much explains your position.

You just go from thread to thread throwing rocks. Why you so mad bro? The sad thing is that you are usually proven wrong, absolutely wrong.

Like your mythical flammable gel flamethrower. Like your insulting claims that I am race baiter that failed math. You are a race hater who hides behind the foolish notion that if you just say racism does not exist , then it doesn't.

That is just plain ole intellectual cowardice, when the facts do not support your silly positions you ignore them. Grow up and try to win a discussion on merit not by childish emo rages.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2013-10-18 11:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
In order for something to be a majority, it has to be 51% of the whole. It's literally defined by mathematicians across the cluster as a subset of a set, consisting of more than half the set's elements. Hence why a Gallente president requires 51% of the population's vote. What this means is that there is no majority race in the Federation. Not one ethnic group has more than 51%, so you are clearly demonstrating that you actually do not know what you are talking about or you are shifting goal post because you are a race baiter. Stamp it on your forehead and remember that.

And Im not the one throwing rocks here. You're the one calling people idiots when we're having a discussion. Also, you'll find that I'm usually right, or settle for a neutral ground and learn something new. You on the other hand resort to ad-hominem literally before anything else, which is quite a blight on your character. And do point out where I said racism does not exist.

Finally, modern flamethrowers use a liquid based gel due to its compact nature, safety for the user, and it's capabilities in low gravity environments. Please go back to your holo games, with Mr. Filth

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#76 - 2013-10-18 12:21:33 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:

Let's use the official demographic numbers for the Gallente Federation
30 to 35% Ethnic Gallente
30% Ethnic Minmatar
20% Ethnic Intaki
10 to 15% Ethnic Manar
5% Ethnic Jin Mei

Those are the published demographics. Let's see who is the majority Ethnic group in the Gallente Federation .... hmmm its the Ethnic Gallente, they are the one ethnic group with the largest percentage. They hold a majority as a group.
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
In order for something to be a majority, it has to be 51% of the whole. It's literally defined by mathematicians across the cluster as a subset of a set, consisting of more than half the set's elements.

I believe you're both correct.

The Ethnic Gallente holding the largest percentage, makes them a plurality, defined as "a subset larger than any other subset considered". Another term for a plurality is "relative majority".

Not the same thing as a simple or absolute majority, granted. But an accepted definition of majority none the less.

Of course, it's no surprise that those on either side of the debate on the trial should seek to argue over whatever statistical terminology best suits their own position.

It's what politicians do with statistics every day of the week.

Bataav

Mahesha | Intaki Liberation Front & Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#77 - 2013-10-18 14:29:58 UTC
If the only thing keeping that Matari in jail is prejudice, does it really matter whether it's being committed by a majority against a minority or a minority against a majority or by fedos against smeerps?

I think that some people's desire to talk about this situation has officially exceeded the amount of content to actually discuss.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#78 - 2013-10-18 15:41:07 UTC
What is a smeerp ?
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-10-18 15:44:31 UTC
Exact terminology is extremely important when talking about statistics. It can change the situation dramatically.

And Mr.Tuulinen, it really isn't that important or relevant, but if someone is going to bring it up, they better get the facts right.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#80 - 2013-10-18 16:25:50 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
What is a smeerp ?


I made it up. Because that's how I roll.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.