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Calling CCP Rise...Numbers please?

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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#21 - 2013-10-17 14:31:35 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
CCP Rise is currently in the sky on his way to EVE Vegas, but when he returns I can poke him about this thread.

We probably won't release the numbers, but I think it would be really interesting to talk about the general impact of the changes.


Why not give out hard numbers?
What is the rationale behind putting up a firewall around statistics like this?

Because it has the potential to force their hand, and make them have to resort to the hugely unpopular 'because we said so' argument for not doing something.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#22 - 2013-10-17 14:32:40 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
CCP Rise is currently in the sky on his way to EVE Vegas, but when he returns I can poke him about this thread.

We probably won't release the numbers, but I think it would be really interesting to talk about the general impact of the changes.
Dolan, why are you not leaving the Ice Fortress in favor of sunny Las Vegas???

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#23 - 2013-10-17 14:50:28 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
CCP Rise is currently in the sky on his way to EVE Vegas, but when he returns I can poke him about this thread.

We probably won't release the numbers, but I think it would be really interesting to talk about the general impact of the changes.


Why not give out hard numbers?
What is the rationale behind putting up a firewall around statistics like this?

Because it has the potential to force their hand, and make them have to resort to the hugely unpopular 'because we said so' argument for not doing something.


My parents used to do that, when I was a kid.
When they knew they were wrong on some topic, and logic was against them, they would use those very words.

Given past actions by CCP, I guess I should expect no more from them.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-10-17 15:12:34 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
CCP Rise is currently in the sky on his way to EVE Vegas, but when he returns I can poke him about this thread.

We probably won't release the numbers, but I think it would be really interesting to talk about the general impact of the changes.


Why not give out hard numbers?
What is the rationale behind putting up a firewall around statistics like this?

Because it has the potential to force their hand, and make them have to resort to the hugely unpopular 'because we said so' argument for not doing something.


My parents used to do that, when I was a kid.
When they knew they were wrong on some topic, and logic was against them, they would use those very words.

Given past actions by CCP, I guess I should expect no more from them.


Statistical manipulation perhaps if CCP was to out right say "we will determine the cost of clones determined by a subset of players with x or greater sp."
Commander Spurty
#25 - 2013-10-17 15:17:10 UTC
What is the point of the question again?

Why aren't older players spanked for loyalty or something wasn't it?

Yes, yes I see why you wouldn't like to come across a fleet of cranky vets in t1 ships when you're in your shiney t2 ship.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#26 - 2013-10-17 15:19:34 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
CCP Rise is currently in the sky on his way to EVE Vegas, but when he returns I can poke him about this thread.

We probably won't release the numbers, but I think it would be really interesting to talk about the general impact of the changes.


Why not give out hard numbers?
What is the rationale behind putting up a firewall around statistics like this?

Because it has the potential to force their hand, and make them have to resort to the hugely unpopular 'because we said so' argument for not doing something.


My parents used to do that, when I was a kid.
When they knew they were wrong on some topic, and logic was against them, they would use those very words.

Given past actions by CCP, I guess I should expect no more from them.


Why did i get this mental image of baby Dinsdale telling his parents that he knew they were conspiring against him?

His parents were probably Goons from Nullsec and he found out about it.
Bubanni
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-10-17 15:25:11 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
CCP Rise,
When the clone costs were lowered due to the outcry of the risk adverse high SP players who wanted to fly smaller ships but didn't like clones costs, you said that if numbers showed that high SP players did more PvP because of it, that clone costs might go down more.

How are those numbers looking? Are you finding a trend that more high SP toons are being killed/ put in harms way since the clone cost reduction? Or do the numbers show that high clone costs were just an excuse to gripe for the sake of griping and no increase in high SP clone loss has been seen?

Im curious on this. If all those who claimed that clone costs were the barrier that prevented them from PvPing in small ships anymore aren't PvPing...then why should clone costs be lowered any more than they are now.



There wasn't enough of a reduction for it to have an effect on high sp clones... I still pay 37.5mil per clone... or something like that

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Heinky
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-10-17 15:25:14 UTC
I centaily dont play eve anymore due my 80 mil clones (without implant cost)

**** that ****, lose 5x a ship in 0.0 and its a gtc.... noway..

*Losing a ship: suicide the 40 odd jumps back as it takes 4 hours to do it safly...
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#29 - 2013-10-17 15:28:24 UTC
Death must have consequences and clone prices are already too cheap, it should be doubled, this is EvE Online not some kindgarden themepark game.

The Tears Must Flow
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#30 - 2013-10-17 16:03:43 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
CCP Rise is currently in the sky on his way to EVE Vegas, but when he returns I can poke him about this thread.

We probably won't release the numbers, but I think it would be really interesting to talk about the general impact of the changes.



Thanks CCP Dolan. Even if hard numbers wont be given, knowing whether or not there is a substantial increase would be nice.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Iron Balls
R to the D
#31 - 2013-10-17 16:18:50 UTC
Make pods immune to bubbles (but not scrams). If you're daft enough to sit around in your pod after your ship goes pop, you deserve to lose it but dropping into a bubble camp is just bad luck and can happen to anyone.
Commander Spurty
#32 - 2013-10-17 16:20:06 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
CCP Dolan wrote:
CCP Rise is currently in the sky on his way to EVE Vegas, but when he returns I can poke him about this thread.

We probably won't release the numbers, but I think it would be really interesting to talk about the general impact of the changes.



Thanks CCP Dolan. Even if hard numbers wont be given, knowing whether or not there is a substantial increase would be nice.


I'm curious now as to what metric you are after.

How do you 'codify' it [it being whatever you are after]? What parameters are you looking for?

Having cheaper clones means that you are more likely to just self destruct your implantless pod over attempting 40 slow jumps through null space in it. This means you're back into the fight quicker.

If your pod has a full Slave set in it, clone costs are hardly the inhibitor!!!

What are you looking for here?

It's usually the case that such requests for DATA that have no formal parameters are designed purely to maximize "free kills and buffs killboard stats" for the posters, hence the perceived boredom of your inquiries.

Don't see any answer possible that would / could ever make you happy.

Please understand my tone is mostly because I've just finished off all of my Windows 8.1 testing, so hyper on Caffeine and excitable!!


There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#33 - 2013-10-17 16:24:18 UTC
Iron Balls wrote:
Make pods immune to bubbles (but not scrams). If you're daft enough to sit around in your pod after your ship goes pop, you deserve to lose it but dropping into a bubble camp is just bad luck and can happen to anyone.


Flying smart reduces the chances of landing in a bubble camp. Treating null like highsec and warping gate to gate...that is what gets you. Pods already have pretty much insta-align and insta-warp, giving them bubble immunity is not the answer. Anyways, if you landed in a bubble camp..and didn't immeadiately burn out of the bubble so your pod can escape, or crashed the gate in an attempt to jump through, or spammed your warpout as you were in structure ,you deserve to lose your pod.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#34 - 2013-10-17 16:32:56 UTC
Spurty wrote:


I'm curious now as to what metric you are after.

How do you 'codify' it [it being whatever you are after]? What parameters are you looking for?

Having cheaper clones means that you are more likely to just self destruct your implantless pod over attempting 40 slow jumps through null space in it. This means you're back into the fight quicker.

If your pod has a full Slave set in it, clone costs are hardly the inhibitor!!!

What are you looking for here?

It's usually the case that such requests for DATA that have no formal parameters are designed purely to maximize "free kills and buffs killboard stats" for the posters, hence the perceived boredom of your inquiries.

Don't see any answer possible that would / could ever make you happy.

Please understand my tone is mostly because I've just finished off all of my Windows 8.1 testing, so hyper on Caffeine and excitable!!




I take no offense to your tone. I have no interest in killboard padding whatsoever. Almost all the threads on needing to remove/lower clone costs mentioned that clone costs were the main reason to either not fly smaller or t1 ships, or PvP at all. I want to see the clone costs reduced further, not just for myself but for RL friends who pretty much don't like to come play with us because losing a clone is too expensive. CCP Rise pretty much said that if there was an increase in higher SP toons PvPing, that additional cost reductions may happen. I don't have a specific metric that im after, just whatever CCP Rise was using as his metric to judge by.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Bubanni
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-10-17 16:33:39 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Death must have consequences and clone prices are already too cheap, it should be doubled, this is EvE Online not some kindgarden themepark game.


I am sure we can get the devs to double your clone cost personally.

But to be honest, it really depends on how high the clone grade is your flying with...

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Commander Spurty
#36 - 2013-10-17 16:42:12 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:


I take no offense to your tone. I have no interest in killboard padding whatsoever. Almost all the threads on needing to remove/lower clone costs mentioned that clone costs were the main reason to either not fly smaller or t1 ships, or PvP at all. I want to see the clone costs reduced further, not just for myself but for RL friends who pretty much don't like to come play with us because losing a clone is too expensive. CCP Rise pretty much said that if there was an increase in higher SP toons PvPing, that additional cost reductions may happen. I don't have a specific metric that im after, just whatever CCP Rise was using as his metric to judge by.



Ok, CCP Rise should take note when 'Old entities reappear on the scene' then.

If he needs motivating to lowering the cost again, I'd point here first, then ask more pointy questions later :-)

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-10-17 16:55:30 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
How can you use a metric that decreases exponentially with player experience to properly measure engagement in pvp? I'd be willing to bet that clone costs are at the least tangentially related to a player's knowledge of or ability to escape with their pod. Thus an increase in willingness to pvp will not necessarily translate into more pods lost. At least not in the direct, easily-measured way you expect.

hm...

Could it be something like that?

amount of SP | number of LEs
-------------------|--------------------
900000_____| X1
1000000____| X2
...._________| ...

I', pretty sure CCP has all data needed for this

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#38 - 2013-10-17 17:12:19 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Death must have consequences and clone prices are already too cheap, it should be doubled, this is EvE Online not some kindgarden themepark game.


Then why only double them? Why not square them? More consequences are better, right?

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Turelus
Utassi Security
#39 - 2013-10-17 18:00:21 UTC
Death needs to have consequences but not to the point that older players should be put off ever flying in NullSec in small ships.
Currently the system penalises older characters from using throw away frigates in fights where bubbles could be used.

Maybe CCP could let us sov holders install an upgrade in our I-HUB/Outpost to lower clone costs like Factional Warfare, I mean we're becoming strong enough that "the Empires are losing control" yet apparently our space empires are using upgrades from ten years ago.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Commander Spurty
#40 - 2013-10-17 18:43:49 UTC
Turelus wrote:
Death needs to have consequences but not to the point that older players should be put off ever flying in NullSec in small ships.
Currently the system penalises older characters from using throw away frigates in fights where bubbles could be used.

Maybe CCP could let us sov holders install an upgrade in our I-HUB/Outpost to lower clone costs like Factional Warfare, I mean we're becoming strong enough that "the Empires are losing control" yet apparently our space empires are using upgrades from ten years ago.


needs a bit of chiseling at, but not a terrible idea. Would at the very least be a 'reason' to leave high sec when you 'come of age'. :-)

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP