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To Captain Constantine, a Response

Author
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#41 - 2013-10-17 14:29:00 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
...especially so for people who were not raised in the better educated end of our society. It is important to be patient with our students, as they may be starting a long way off. To wit...

...They are products of more valuable rewards: knowledge and industry. These more nebulous concepts are perhaps harder to grasp, as knowledge has little material worth for the owner unless he can make it into a profitable venture. ... The collar is just that, a product meant to symbolize something greater. The love should not be in the reward, but in the work meant to gain the reward.

Perhaps I should not hold all people to the same standard of behavior...


You are arguing with one of the few things I can own with pride in my past. Your "more valuable products" are things YOU view with value, not I. I've never had the capacity to receive such rewards with any weight. In fact, such rewards are insulting when there is such an outcry for more important things.

You don't need those other things, having either always been provided for you or you're simply that passionless.

Either that or they are argued unimportant.

Yet that is your belief. And the fact you impose your beliefs is not a crime but your lack of being able to respect someone else's is truly insulting. And many wonder why so many Amarrians are ill-recieved...

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2013-10-17 14:39:55 UTC
Isis Dea wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
...especially so for people who were not raised in the better educated end of our society. It is important to be patient with our students, as they may be starting a long way off. To wit...

...They are products of more valuable rewards: knowledge and industry. These more nebulous concepts are perhaps harder to grasp, as knowledge has little material worth for the owner unless he can make it into a profitable venture. ... The collar is just that, a product meant to symbolize something greater. The love should not be in the reward, but in the work meant to gain the reward.

Perhaps I should not hold all people to the same standard of behavior...


You are arguing with one of the few things I can own with pride in my past. Your "more valuable products" are things YOU view with value, not I. I've never had the capacity to receive such rewards with any weight. In fact, such rewards are insulting when there is such an outcry for more important things.

You don't need those other things, having either always been provided for you or you're simply that passionless.

Either that or they are argued unimportant.

Yet that is your belief. And the fact you impose your beliefs is not a crime but your lack of being able to respect someone else's is truly insulting. And many wonder why so many Amarrians are ill-recieved...



Understand though, Isis, I've explained why they are more important to me. What use are physical rewards, especially to capsuleers? You even stated yourself that you valued the collar by what it represented as a temporal effect. The idea that we are above reproach because our values are our values and should never be changed is necessarily at odds with our imperfections as individuals.

The collar truly is worthless, especially since, if I'd really wanted to, I could go out and buy one now for you. Would it mean the same thing? What would you have done to have earned it? It is simply a thing, metaphysical weight therefore being ascribed by us.

Hence I am asking whether or not you should value servitude for the sake of someone else's respect. If it is so easily taken away, does it have any real permanent value the way that education and wisdom do? Would those things not be more valuable simply because they are the only things in the universe that are absolutely and irrevocably yours?

Sometimes, having our deepest values question can feel personal and insulting, but it isn't intended to be that way nor should it truly be. You cannot grow, as a soul, if the second we hear a contradictory opinion we retreat to a safer place where no one can question us. We should embrace that aspect of our existence and meet questions like this with open arms. Otherwise, for all our brazen talk, we would be no better than the most frightened of people. Given that we cannot die and our courage is based more on a risk of revenue than a matter of life and death, bravery is no longer something we can prove by simply risking our lives. As such, our fears become all too apparent in our manner.

There is no need to be afraid, though. Embrace the danger of examination. Difficult questions concerning belief and soul are not things to hide from behind walls of our own egos, but opportunities to affirm our beliefs' validity or grow in better directions.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#43 - 2013-10-17 16:23:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Isis Dea wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
...especially so for people who were not raised in the better educated end of our society. It is important to be patient with our students, as they may be starting a long way off. To wit...

...They are products of more valuable rewards: knowledge and industry. These more nebulous concepts are perhaps harder to grasp, as knowledge has little material worth for the owner unless he can make it into a profitable venture. ... The collar is just that, a product meant to symbolize something greater. The love should not be in the reward, but in the work meant to gain the reward.

Perhaps I should not hold all people to the same standard of behavior...


You are arguing with one of the few things I can own with pride in my past. Your "more valuable products" are things YOU view with value, not I. I've never had the capacity to receive such rewards with any weight. In fact, such rewards are insulting when there is such an outcry for more important things.

You don't need those other things, having either always been provided for you or you're simply that passionless.

Either that or they are argued unimportant.

Yet that is your belief. And the fact you impose your beliefs is not a crime but your lack of being able to respect someone else's is truly insulting. And many wonder why so many Amarrians are ill-recieved...



Understand though, Isis, I've explained why they are more important to me. What use are physical rewards, especially to capsuleers? You even stated yourself that you valued the collar by what it represented as a temporal effect. The idea that we are above reproach because our values are our values and should never be changed is necessarily at odds with our imperfections as individuals.

The collar truly is worthless, especially since, if I'd really wanted to, I could go out and buy one now for you. Would it mean the same thing? What would you have done to have earned it? It is simply a thing, metaphysical weight therefore being ascribed by us.

Hence I am asking whether or not you should value servitude for the sake of someone else's respect. If it is so easily taken away, does it have any real permanent value the way that education and wisdom do? Would those things not be more valuable simply because they are the only things in the universe that are absolutely and irrevocably yours?

Sometimes, having our deepest values question can feel personal and insulting, but it isn't intended to be that way nor should it truly be. You cannot grow, as a soul, if the second we hear a contradictory opinion we retreat to a safer place where no one can question us. We should embrace that aspect of our existence and meet questions like this with open arms. Otherwise, for all our brazen talk, we would be no better than the most frightened of people. Given that we cannot die and our courage is based more on a risk of revenue than a matter of life and death, bravery is no longer something we can prove by simply risking our lives. As such, our fears become all too apparent in our manner.

There is no need to be afraid, though. Embrace the danger of examination. Difficult questions concerning belief and soul are not things to hide from behind walls of our own egos, but opportunities to affirm our beliefs' validity or grow in better directions.



It isn't the question of examination, nor is it the fear of knowledge. Surely now, the collar has no meaning within the life of a capsuleer.

The question isn't of the present, it is of the past. The ability to understand, to embrace, and to respect how we've gotten to where we are. For the past still affects me, even now where it shouldn't. For something truly magic happened during that time, wether I wanted it or not.

And I was hoping you would understand that. To see and even use such mechanics in order to overcome whatever hold my past has over me.

But you can't even do that.

You're so far hung up on intentions, the shoulds and shouldn'ts of what you've nobly witnessed in life, you don't seem to understand how pointless all of those things are compared to my "what actually happened" regardless of my say in it.

But I got it, you're trying to teach. You're trying to preach. You're trying to do what you know best. I'm sorry for trying to hold you to anything else.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#44 - 2013-10-17 16:42:38 UTC
Isis Dea wrote:
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Isis Dea wrote:


You are arguing with one of the few things I can own with pride in my past. Your "more valuable products" are things YOU view with value, not I. I've never had the capacity to receive such rewards with any weight. In fact, such rewards are insulting when there is such an outcry for more important things.

You don't need those other things, having either always been provided for you or you're simply that passionless.

Either that or they are argued unimportant.

Yet that is your belief. And the fact you impose your beliefs is not a crime but your lack of being able to respect someone else's is truly insulting. And many wonder why so many Amarrians are ill-recieved...



Understand though, Isis, I've explained why they are more important to me. What use are physical rewards, especially to capsuleers? You even stated yourself that you valued the collar by what it represented as a temporal effect. The idea that we are above reproach because our values are our values and should never be changed is necessarily at odds with our imperfections as individuals.

The collar truly is worthless, especially since, if I'd really wanted to, I could go out and buy one now for you. Would it mean the same thing? What would you have done to have earned it? It is simply a thing, metaphysical weight therefore being ascribed by us.

Hence I am asking whether or not you should value servitude for the sake of someone else's respect. If it is so easily taken away, does it have any real permanent value the way that education and wisdom do? Would those things not be more valuable simply because they are the only things in the universe that are absolutely and irrevocably yours?

Sometimes, having our deepest values question can feel personal and insulting, but it isn't intended to be that way nor should it truly be. You cannot grow, as a soul, if the second we hear a contradictory opinion we retreat to a safer place where no one can question us. We should embrace that aspect of our existence and meet questions like this with open arms. Otherwise, for all our brazen talk, we would be no better than the most frightened of people. Given that we cannot die and our courage is based more on a risk of revenue than a matter of life and death, bravery is no longer something we can prove by simply risking our lives. As such, our fears become all too apparent in our manner.

There is no need to be afraid, though. Embrace the danger of examination. Difficult questions concerning belief and soul are not things to hide from behind walls of our own egos, but opportunities to affirm our beliefs' validity or grow in better directions.



It isn't the question of examination, nor is it the fear of knowledge. Surely now, the collar has no meaning within the life of a capsuleer.

The question isn't of the present, it is of the past. The ability to understand, to embrace, and to respect how we've gotten to where we are. For the past still affects me, even now where it shouldn't. For something truly magic happened during that time, wether I wanted it or not.

And I was hoping you would understand that. To see and even use such mechanics in order to overcome whatever hold my past has over me.

But you can't even do that.

You're so far hung up on intentions, the shoulds and shouldn'ts of what you've nobly witnessed in life, you don't seem to understand how pointless all of those things are compared to my "what actually happened" regardless of my say in it.

But I got it, you're trying to teach. You're trying to preach. You're trying to do what you know best. I'm sorry for trying to hold you to anything else.


Perhaps the disconnect is in how we view the past. While the past can be valuable, it is also completely calcified. There is no ability to change the past, so once its lessons are learned it is often important to move on from it. Intentions are not pointless as they will shape future events.

For example, let's say, in the past, a man shoots another man. That is something that is inviolable and cannot be changed. It provides nothing but the setup for intentions, because nothing about this explains anything about the world. It doesn't explain why one man would shoot another, whether he was justified or not, whether future generations will inflict misery on each other or allow this to pass into time. His intentions, what he intended to do and why he intended to do it, are of penultimate importance, as well as everyone else's intentions on what to do about it afterwards.

Which returns to your point. The reason the past has such a hold on you is because you have not yet understood what matter of it had value to you that continues to affect you. I would say overcoming the issue of your own humanity is not a way to respond to the past, since it obviously had some measure of worth you would like to have repeated. That relies intrinsically on intentions, because it can happen again, even in different ways. You simply cannot change the past to make it happen a different way than it did.

Instead of looking backward, look forward and marvel even at the present. There are lessons to be learned, things you have not experienced yet because it is impossible to experience them all. The universe is rich and full of life, while the past is immobile. It can only instruct future behavior by present study, otherwise it is a burden, reminding us of things we wished would happen differently and hope will happen again.

The only way to better ourselves, though, is to understand the intrinsic value of things we cannot always touch. Love, affection, intimacy, these things are cold as memories in the past. But they exist now, and can be had in the future. Those are the only ways to ever truly feel them again. Your answers are not behind you.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#45 - 2013-10-17 16:54:00 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:

Perhaps the disconnect is in how we view the past. While the past can be valuable, it is also completely calcified. There is no ability to change the past, so once its lessons are learned it is often important to move on from it. Intentions are not pointless as they will shape future events.

For example, let's say, in the past, a man shoots another man. That is something that is inviolable and cannot be changed. It provides nothing but the setup for intentions, because nothing about this explains anything about the world. It doesn't explain why one man would shoot another, whether he was justified or not, whether future generations will inflict misery on each other or allow this to pass into time. His intentions, what he intended to do and why he intended to do it, are of penultimate importance, as well as everyone else's intentions on what to do about it afterwards.

Which returns to your point. The reason the past has such a hold on you is because you have not yet understood what matter of it had value to you that continues to affect you. I would say overcoming the issue of your own humanity is not a way to respond to the past, since it obviously had some measure of worth you would like to have repeated. That relies intrinsically on intentions, because it can happen again, even in different ways. You simply cannot change the past to make it happen a different way than it did.

Instead of looking backward, look forward and marvel even at the present. There are lessons to be learned, things you have not experienced yet because it is impossible to experience them all. The universe is rich and full of life, while the past is immobile. It can only instruct future behavior by present study, otherwise it is a burden, reminding us of things we wished would happen differently and hope will happen again.

The only way to better ourselves, though, is to understand the intrinsic value of things we cannot always touch. Love, affection, intimacy, these things are cold as memories in the past. But they exist now, and can be had in the future. Those are the only ways to ever truly feel them again. Your answers are not behind you.


I'm not looking for answers, I'm looking to re-explore the past, where it was noble, where I was able to find escape.

I'm not looking for critique for how I am supposed to value things now or how I'm supposed to live my life now... I'm only looking to find someone who understands and can relate even if they've not lived specifically in my shoes.

But clearly that's a lost cause here.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#46 - 2013-10-17 17:02:45 UTC
I can certainly understand the value of things from the past, though I imagine in a very different way. I hope that you keep those treasured things, and that they give you some measure of comfort in troubled times.
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#47 - 2013-10-17 17:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
Scherezad wrote:
I can certainly understand the value of things from the past, though I imagine in a very different way. I hope that you keep those treasured things, and that they give you some measure of comfort in troubled times.


There's also the people. I mean... the collar is only half of the deal compared to someone who knows how to wield it, in and amongst the setting.

And as much as I miss the actions, I do not miss the person. I hurt them for a reason at the end of the day. I don't regret that. Many others including a crew I once had I've very careful snuffed the life out in my little journeys of revenge. You could say I have an obsession with the act.

But it makes you wonder about random people you meet throughout the every day... you wonder how well they would handle the reigns if given them. And your curiosity can put your mind in some new and very dangerous places...

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2013-10-17 21:34:41 UTC
Isis Dea wrote:
I'm not looking for answers, I'm looking to re-explore the past, where it was noble, where I was able to find escape.

I'm not looking for critique for how I am supposed to value things now or how I'm supposed to live my life now... I'm only looking to find someone who understands and can relate even if they've not lived specifically in my shoes.

But clearly that's a lost cause here.


Perhaps you've misinterpreted my response. Believe me, I completely understand. I'd have to be inhuman not to, considering how much the past is fetishized by many people. However, I think you simply aren't getting the response you thought you would. Just because I understand what you mean does not mean I think it has done you any good, hence the conversation.

Be wary when you go searching solely for validation. Criticism is a very negative term, especially considering how often the past seems to dominate modern present life. Nor is it anything to be afraid of. I am simply responding to your point by saying that you won't escape into your past or find real solace there. The past isn't a place you can go, a thing you can touch, or a series of events you can change.

The question is never, "What happened and why did I lose something?" The question is always, "What am I going to do about it?"

Perhaps that would be a better place to start. If you hurt someone and this has affected you to such a degree, what will you do? Will you find love again? Find the person you wronged and make amends? If dead, will you visit that person's memorial?

There isn't a way to escape into the past, but all things are possible in the future if you set your mind towards them. You won't see the road fork staring backwards, but looking forward you can at least move in the direction you know is right. Perhaps those things you lost, you may find again in other places you did not expect.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#49 - 2013-10-18 22:02:54 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Isis Dea wrote:
I'm not looking for answers, I'm looking to re-explore the past, where it was noble, where I was able to find escape.

I'm not looking for critique for how I am supposed to value things now or how I'm supposed to live my life now... I'm only looking to find someone who understands and can relate even if they've not lived specifically in my shoes.

But clearly that's a lost cause here.


Perhaps you've misinterpreted my response. Believe me, I completely understand. I'd have to be inhuman not to, considering how much the past is fetishized by many people. However, I think you simply aren't getting the response you thought you would. Just because I understand what you mean does not mean I think it has done you any good, hence the conversation.

Be wary when you go searching solely for validation. Criticism is a very negative term, especially considering how often the past seems to dominate modern present life. Nor is it anything to be afraid of. I am simply responding to your point by saying that you won't escape into your past or find real solace there. The past isn't a place you can go, a thing you can touch, or a series of events you can change.

The question is never, "What happened and why did I lose something?" The question is always, "What am I going to do about it?"

Perhaps that would be a better place to start. If you hurt someone and this has affected you to such a degree, what will you do? Will you find love again? Find the person you wronged and make amends? If dead, will you visit that person's memorial?

There isn't a way to escape into the past, but all things are possible in the future if you set your mind towards them. You won't see the road fork staring backwards, but looking forward you can at least move in the direction you know is right. Perhaps those things you lost, you may find again in other places you did not expect.


You're stating the obvious and what I already know.

I'll seek escape elsewhere.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

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