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Tornado vs. Talos rough comparison and feedback.
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sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#21 - 2011-11-17 04:12:21 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
By the way, has anyone looked at the Talos side by side with a Brutix? If someone could and post the stats here, that would be far more interesting then looking at it against another race. I have a feeling the lack of tank is in no way worth the small rise in dps. [/i]



Anyone looked at that?

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2011-11-17 04:16:41 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Okay, I tried now both ships and my skills at autocannons and blasters are maxed out.

Tornado basic fitting:

8x 800 Autocannon ll
10 MN MWD ll, 2x LSE ll, Azetrophic EM ward, Warp Disrupter ll
DCU ll, TE ll, 2x Gyrostab ll,

46km Falloff with EMP Ammunition, 70km with Barrage, Speed 1661m/s


Talos basic fitting:
8x Neutron Blaster Cannon ll
10 MN MWD ll, 2x Web ll, Warp Disrupter ll
DCU ll, Adaptive plating ll, 800mm Rolled Tungsten plate, 2x Mag. Field Stab ll

4,5km optimal and 12,5km falloff with Antimatter, with Null I got 11,25km optimal and 15,625km falloff

I think it shows what is really wrong with both ships, when presented with a choice I would choose the Tornado in practically any situation. The only situation where the Talos may have small chance to shine is, when it lands practically on top an enemy and can immediatly tackle them, with webbers and then blast them. In almost any other situation the Talos will be kited to death.

Since I can fly both I see no point in the Talos and will fly a Tornado instead (pocket-Machariel)


I have noticed you have not mentioned EHP or DPS of the ships, nor have you mentioned one has dual webs.
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2011-11-17 04:22:12 UTC
IceAero wrote:
Talos needs a web bonus.

End of discussion? Who would be against this? And how would it not fix everything?


It will fix nothing, and cause more problems.

Most of the crying in here is about blaster range. A web range bonus might help in that regard, a web speed bonus won't.

And these web bonuses are going to cause the ship to be overpowered. These ships are supposed to be vulnerable to smaller ships (Cruisers/Dessy's/Frigates). A web range OR web speed bonus will mostly nullify these as threats.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-11-17 10:00:25 UTC
I have edited my previous post the Talos on Sisi now has the drone bay returned, a single heavy stasis web drone drops the speed of the Tornado listed to 1329m/s. An Armour Tornado would drop to around 1000m/s.

As for the Brutix, it does come out very comparable, obviously with medium guns the range is less but for a within scram fit that could be a moot point.

Something like this has 39,983 EHP, 1237m/s and 827DPS, I would normally go for more tank and not fit the polycarbs but I was trying to get the speed up to a comparable level (also no powergrid for Hybrid rigs), the combat drone DPS is included, turret DPS only comes to about 669dps. This is with the winter mirror but I do not think includes the 5% blaster DPS uplift.

The Talos benefits are really it's additional speed and the range of the large guns.

[Brutix, New Setup 1]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I


Hammerhead II x5
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#25 - 2011-11-17 14:54:24 UTC
So basically if you're coming in close, you're actually better off with a Brutix because while the DPS is alittle less, and the range is alittle less. If you're at 0km anyway, the bigger tank is more important. Well thats an issue.

Most of my corp mates are just Shield tanking the Talos, and orbiting targets in Null range around 22-32KM. None are fitting points, and will likely toss that out to support ships in a fleet. The up close Talos seems to be a none starter, doesn't have the right tools to kill targets before is weak tank fails it.

Just incase people wanted to know, The Shield Talos was fighting a Shield Tornado with Honour points, Talos won both times because at 24km, it actually does more Damage. Tornado was tanked much better yet still died.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-11-17 15:08:32 UTC
What's the dps of a Talos with 350 or 425 rails? Maybe blasters is just something you should foget in a paper-thin hull...
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-11-17 15:54:10 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Okay, I tried now both ships and my skills at autocannons and blasters are maxed out.

Tornado basic fitting:

8x 800 Autocannon ll
10 MN MWD ll, 2x LSE ll, Azetrophic EM ward, Warp Disrupter ll
DCU ll, TE ll, 2x Gyrostab ll,

46km Falloff with EMP Ammunition, 70km with Barrage, Speed 1661m/s


Talos basic fitting:
8x Neutron Blaster Cannon ll
10 MN MWD ll, 2x Web ll, Warp Disrupter ll
DCU ll, Adaptive plating ll, 800mm Rolled Tungsten plate, 2x Mag. Field Stab ll

4,5km optimal and 12,5km falloff with Antimatter, with Null I got 11,25km optimal and 15,625km falloff

I think it shows what is really wrong with both ships, when presented with a choice I would choose the Tornado in practically any situation. The only situation where the Talos may have small chance to shine is, when it lands practically on top an enemy and can immediatly tackle them, with webbers and then blast them. In almost any other situation the Talos will be kited to death.

Since I can fly both I see no point in the Talos and will fly a Tornado instead (pocket-Machariel)


1. people need to quit it with saying that blasters need range. i, like most other hybrid pilots, skilled into them to have uber-dps point blank guns, and all i got was point blank guns. the issue is the lack of dps not range. weapon diversity ftw.

2. you don't even compare dps or ehp.

3. at a more fundamental level, the way you have designed the fits, the stats that you show about them and the way that you talk about their usage indicates that you fundamentally want the Talos to fail.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-11-17 17:41:08 UTC
Jiji Hamin wrote:
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Okay, I tried now both ships and my skills at autocannons and blasters are maxed out.

Tornado basic fitting:

8x 800 Autocannon ll
10 MN MWD ll, 2x LSE ll, Azetrophic EM ward, Warp Disrupter ll
DCU ll, TE ll, 2x Gyrostab ll,

46km Falloff with EMP Ammunition, 70km with Barrage, Speed 1661m/s


Talos basic fitting:
8x Neutron Blaster Cannon ll
10 MN MWD ll, 2x Web ll, Warp Disrupter ll
DCU ll, Adaptive plating ll, 800mm Rolled Tungsten plate, 2x Mag. Field Stab ll

4,5km optimal and 12,5km falloff with Antimatter, with Null I got 11,25km optimal and 15,625km falloff

I think it shows what is really wrong with both ships, when presented with a choice I would choose the Tornado in practically any situation. The only situation where the Talos may have small chance to shine is, when it lands practically on top an enemy and can immediatly tackle them, with webbers and then blast them. In almost any other situation the Talos will be kited to death.

Since I can fly both I see no point in the Talos and will fly a Tornado instead (pocket-Machariel)


1. people need to quit it with saying that blasters need range. i, like most other hybrid pilots, skilled into them to have uber-dps point blank guns, and all i got was point blank guns. the issue is the lack of dps not range. weapon diversity ftw.

2. you don't even compare dps or ehp.

3. at a more fundamental level, the way you have designed the fits, the stats that you show about them and the way that you talk about their usage indicates that you fundamentally want the Talos to fail.


I agree but would happily swap the Talos tracking bonus for the Tornado Fall off bonus.
Lek Arthie
Doomheim
#29 - 2011-11-17 17:48:14 UTC
OP if you like ACs so much and you choose ACs above all else, just train ACs and dont whine.
But if other pilots kill you with blasters dont come here whining again about ACs.
xxxak
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2011-11-17 18:03:15 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Okay, I tried now both ships and my skills at autocannons and blasters are maxed out.

Tornado basic fitting:

8x 800 Autocannon ll
10 MN MWD ll, 2x LSE ll, Azetrophic EM ward, Warp Disrupter ll
DCU ll, TE ll, 2x Gyrostab ll,

46km Falloff with EMP Ammunition, 70km with Barrage, Speed 1661m/s


Talos basic fitting:
8x Neutron Blaster Cannon ll
10 MN MWD ll, 2x Web ll, Warp Disrupter ll
DCU ll, Adaptive plating ll, 800mm Rolled Tungsten plate, 2x Mag. Field Stab ll

4,5km optimal and 12,5km falloff with Antimatter, with Null I got 11,25km optimal and 15,625km falloff

I think it shows what is really wrong with both ships, when presented with a choice I would choose the Tornado in practically any situation. The only situation where the Talos may have small chance to shine is, when it lands practically on top an enemy and can immediatly tackle them, with webbers and then blast them. In almost any other situation the Talos will be kited to death.

Since I can fly both I see no point in the Talos and will fly a Tornado instead (pocket-Machariel)


This really.

[u]The nerfs to supercaps will cause more super pilots to join the largest alliances who can properly "support" their deployment, further concentrating firepower/wealth in EVE. The end result will be fewer "fun" fights, and will hurt EVE in the long run.[/u]
Gigi Zaan
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2011-11-18 11:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gigi Zaan
edit: misclick
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2011-11-18 13:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaigar
sYnc Vir wrote:
If you're only getting 1661m/s from a tornado then you're clearly fitting it wrong. Also matching up Autos and Blaster is never a good idea. Do we really have to see another thread by someone complaining that their hybrids don't work like Autocannons?

Im not trying to be rude to the OP, but could you honest to god, please, please learn how to ******* fly Gal ships before making a "look how **** they are" thread.

In before the "can't make range" comments, get a better warp in, if you know you're in ships that demand being at 4km - 12km and you don't have some inties to bridge range and get you the warp ins, then your fleets set up wrong, go buy hurricanes and press F1 together.

The ships are meant to not only do different things, but be used differently. If you roam around in a "no matter the race we fly like this" mind. Then you get what you get, and the builders of your ships thank you.

The winning is in your piloting, not the balancing from ccp.

+1 to this. I fly with guys who use blasters extremely well (even on TQ) in WH space. Because of the nature of WHs, people pop out always within web range, and when ganking warp-ins are always right on top.

Honestly I wouldn't downplay tracking. Can a tornado still hit a scimitar 40km out while orbiting it? Comparing 800s to heavy neutrons, the talos has 65% better tracking than a tornado, and have you tried to see how this affects combat when close?

Seriously, go experiment trying to pop logi's while trying to maintain some form of transversal, it aint easy.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#33 - 2011-11-18 16:05:58 UTC
Jaigar wrote:
sYnc Vir wrote:
If you're only getting 1661m/s from a tornado then you're clearly fitting it wrong. Also matching up Autos and Blaster is never a good idea. Do we really have to see another thread by someone complaining that their hybrids don't work like Autocannons?

Im not trying to be rude to the OP, but could you honest to god, please, please learn how to ******* fly Gal ships before making a "look how **** they are" thread.

In before the "can't make range" comments, get a better warp in, if you know you're in ships that demand being at 4km - 12km and you don't have some inties to bridge range and get you the warp ins, then your fleets set up wrong, go buy hurricanes and press F1 together.

The ships are meant to not only do different things, but be used differently. If you roam around in a "no matter the race we fly like this" mind. Then you get what you get, and the builders of your ships thank you.

The winning is in your piloting, not the balancing from ccp.

+1 to this. I fly with guys who use blasters extremely well (even on TQ) in WH space. Because of the nature of WHs, people pop out always within web range, and when ganking warp-ins are always right on top.

Honestly I wouldn't downplay tracking. Can a tornado still hit a scimitar 40km out while orbiting it? Comparing 800s to heavy neutrons, the talos has 65% better tracking than a tornado, and have you tried to see how this affects combat when close?

Seriously, go experiment trying to pop logi's while trying to maintain some form of transversal, it aint easy.


I'm playing with my basi on SISI fleets, this oen has a bigger sign radius than scimi right?

Well talos is less than a problem because can't get in range anyway he's already dead, while tornados keep shooting strong enough from "there" mwd'in and gtfo.

Probably in TQ this will change a bit, but seriously, Talos is less of a problem for logis pilots other than try desperately to keep them alive witch is almost impossible if you're not several remoting the thing
Oberine Noriepa
#34 - 2011-11-18 18:40:01 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Probably in TQ this will change a bit, but seriously, Talos is less of a problem for logis pilots other than try desperately to keep them alive witch is almost impossible if you're not several remoting the thing

When I was fleeted with logistics, I definitely ran into this problem. The hull isn't too sustainable, but I suppose that's a point of the ship's design. I've heard that a shield tanked Talos has more survivability than an armor tanked one, but I'm not so sure how well that opinion holds.

∃
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#35 - 2011-11-18 18:45:30 UTC
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Probably in TQ this will change a bit, but seriously, Talos is less of a problem for logis pilots other than try desperately to keep them alive witch is almost impossible if you're not several remoting the thing

When I was fleeted with logistics, I definitely ran into this problem. The hull isn't too sustainable, but I suppose that's a point of the ship's design. I've heard that a shield tanked Talos has more survivability than an armor tanked one, but I'm not so sure how well that opinion holds.


I know no one whose tested the Talos and said they are going to armor tank it. Everyone of them is going to shield tank it because its simply better that way. Glass Cannon that can out DPS a Tornado < 30KM

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Oberine Noriepa
#36 - 2011-11-18 18:57:54 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
I know no one whose tested the Talos and said they are going to armor tank it. Everyone of them is going to shield tank it because its simply better that way. Glass Cannon that can out DPS a Tornado < 30KM

Awesome. I'll have to give that a shot later on. Smile

∃
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#37 - 2011-11-18 19:34:53 UTC
if you're going to shield tank a Talos just get a Naga instead.... If you're going to armor tank the Talos... Don't.

From my extensive Sisi testing I can assure you that the Talos is bar none the worst of the tier 3 BCS for anything other than high sec ganking where the use of 2 more dmg mods may come in handy... Then again you're probably better off getting a couple buddies flying t1 fit catalysts/thrashers anyway.
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#38 - 2011-11-18 20:01:39 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
if you're going to shield tank a Talos just get a Naga instead.... If you're going to armor tank the Talos... Don't.

From my extensive Sisi testing I can assure you that the Talos is bar none the worst of the tier 3 BCS for anything other than high sec ganking where the use of 2 more dmg mods may come in handy... Then again you're probably better off getting a couple buddies flying t1 fit catalysts/thrashers anyway.



The lack of lows on the naga, make it useless as a blaster boat. Rails however work on that one.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#39 - 2011-11-18 22:14:55 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
if you're going to shield tank a Talos just get a Naga instead.... If you're going to armor tank the Talos... Don't.

From my extensive Sisi testing I can assure you that the Talos is bar none the worst of the tier 3 BCS for anything other than high sec ganking where the use of 2 more dmg mods may come in handy... Then again you're probably better off getting a couple buddies flying t1 fit catalysts/thrashers anyway.



The lack of lows on the naga, make it useless as a blaster boat. Rails however work on that one.


Your blaster Talos against my Blaster Naga... I'd suggest we even wait till after xpack hits TQ so this wager has a bit more meaning to it. Deal?
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#40 - 2011-11-18 22:52:33 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
sYnc Vir wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
if you're going to shield tank a Talos just get a Naga instead.... If you're going to armor tank the Talos... Don't.

From my extensive Sisi testing I can assure you that the Talos is bar none the worst of the tier 3 BCS for anything other than high sec ganking where the use of 2 more dmg mods may come in handy... Then again you're probably better off getting a couple buddies flying t1 fit catalysts/thrashers anyway.



The lack of lows on the naga, make it useless as a blaster boat. Rails however work on that one.


Your blaster Talos against my Blaster Naga... I'd suggest we even wait till after xpack hits TQ so this wager has a bit more meaning to it. Deal?


Its not my Talos, corp mates. But the extra lows on a shield Talos allow TEs and a Nano. I Dont have T2 Large Blasters.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
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