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Calling CCP Rise...Numbers please?

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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#1 - 2013-10-16 17:07:47 UTC
CCP Rise,
When the clone costs were lowered due to the outcry of the risk adverse high SP players who wanted to fly smaller ships but didn't like clones costs, you said that if numbers showed that high SP players did more PvP because of it, that clone costs might go down more.

How are those numbers looking? Are you finding a trend that more high SP toons are being killed/ put in harms way since the clone cost reduction? Or do the numbers show that high clone costs were just an excuse to gripe for the sake of griping and no increase in high SP clone loss has been seen?

Im curious on this. If all those who claimed that clone costs were the barrier that prevented them from PvPing in small ships anymore aren't PvPing...then why should clone costs be lowered any more than they are now.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Takari
Promised Victorious Entropy
#2 - 2013-10-16 17:13:17 UTC
I'll +1 this.. It doesn't have to be concrete numbers. Even correct but unlabeled graphs would do.

If a group said they'd PvP more if clone costs go down and then didn't follow through why would CCP listen to similar suggestions in the future?

"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things. Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon

"Good luck, shoot straight and don't back down." - Serendipity Lost
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#3 - 2013-10-16 17:21:17 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
CCP Rise,
When the clone costs were lowered due to the outcry of the risk adverse high SP players who wanted to fly smaller ships but didn't like clones costs, you said that if numbers showed that high SP players did more PvP because of it, that clone costs might go down more.

How are those numbers looking? Are you finding a trend that more high SP toons are being killed/ put in harms way since the clone cost reduction? Or do the numbers show that high clone costs were just an excuse to gripe for the sake of griping and no increase in high SP clone loss has been seen?

Im curious on this. If all those who claimed that clone costs were the barrier that prevented them from PvPing in small ships anymore aren't PvPing...then why should clone costs be lowered any more than they are now.



I would be very much interested if CCP responds to this quite reasonable request.
Any time I have asked for numbers, it is met with silence from CCP.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#4 - 2013-10-16 17:32:19 UTC
The statistics you are asking for do not match what you're talking about.

Quote:
Im curious on this. If all those who claimed that clone costs were the barrier that prevented them from PvPing in small ships anymore aren't PvPing...then why should clone costs be lowered any more than they are now.


The relevant metric you're looking for would be, "Are old players flying cheaper ships more often after the clone cost reduction?"
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#5 - 2013-10-16 17:37:48 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
The relevant metric you're looking for would be, "Are old players flying cheaper ships more often after the clone cost reduction?"


Actually, flying cheaper ships was just part of the excuse being employed by the high SP toons in their concerns about high clone costs. They were saying that PvP in general was cost prohibitive because of the clone costs.

What I want to know is, has the lowering of the clone costs had the intended effect on the PvP habits of the higher SP characters who demaded the clone costs be lowered? Why should any future adjustment to the clone costs be made if the first adjustment had no effect?

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#6 - 2013-10-16 17:44:49 UTC
Quote:
Actually, flying cheaper ships was just part of the excuse being employed by the high SP toons in their concerns about high clone costs. They were saying that PvP in general was cost prohibitive because of the clone costs.

What I want to know is, has the lowering of the clone costs had the intended effect on the PvP habits of the higher SP characters who demaded the clone costs be lowered? Why should any future adjustment to the clone costs be made if the first adjustment had no effect?


You know, you'd probably be more likely to get a response from CCP in the form that you're asking for if you phrased your question as a question and not a passive-aggressive rant.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#7 - 2013-10-16 18:11:02 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
You know, you'd probably be more likely to get a response from CCP in the form that you're asking for if you phrased your question as a question and not a passive-aggressive rant.


Very true. Re-reading through it, I can see how it could be interpreted that way. But ask yourself this: Is it any more passive-aggressively ranting than the hundred threads were that requested lower clone costs? I think youll find that by comparison, this thread is rather tame...especially coming from me.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#8 - 2013-10-16 18:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Very true. Re-reading through it, I can see how it could be interpreted that way. But ask yourself this: Is it any more passive-aggressively ranting than the hundred threads were that requested lower clone costs? I think youll find that by comparison, this thread is rather tame...especially coming from me.


Yes, it is much more passive aggressive. Requesting a change is not passive aggressive or wrong at all. A substantial part of the reason developers bother watching forums is because they want people to provide feedback.

Now, if you'd like to instead make a thread about how you think that clone costs were fine as is because you don't think the reduction had the desired effect, that would be different.

The distinction is that if you were to have done that, interesting points could have been raised and people could've learned something or gotten a new perspective, whereas this thread is just unnecessary chestbeating
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#9 - 2013-10-16 18:30:53 UTC
Another question, I think, is whether or not the clone costs were lowered enough to have a meaningful impact on older characters PvP'ing in general, and PvP'ing in smaller ships.

Then again, I suppose if the numbers on the lower end of the clone costs (newer characters) increased by a noticeable amount, it would prove positive in the long-run for characters on the higher end (older characters), as it would show CCP that clone costs are indeed having an impact.

For the Newbies: The 8 Golden Rules - The Magic 14 Skills - Finding the Right Corp - EVE University Wiki
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#10 - 2013-10-16 18:38:12 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Yes, it is much more passive aggressive. Requesting a change is not passive aggressive or wrong at all. A substantial part of the reason developers bother watching forums is because they want people to provide feedback.

Now, if you'd like to instead make a thread about how you think that clone costs were fine as is because you don't think the reduction had the desired effect, that would be different.

The distinction is that if you were to have done that, interesting points could have been raised and people could've learned something or gotten a new perspective, whereas this thread is just unnecessary chestbeating


You are as always entitled to your opinion. With the clone cost reduction, I found myself taking more risks with some of my higher SP toons, so I am thankful for the reduction in the costs associated with clone replacement. Would I enjoy a further lowering of clone costs? Absolutely. But you see, whether or not a further reduction happens isn't dependent on my demographic, its dependent on the demographic that "requested" the change in the first place. I want to know if the habits of that demographic have changed as most of them said it would if CCP did their part.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Kate stark
#11 - 2013-10-16 18:40:15 UTC
personally, it's the cost of replacing learning implants than the clone costs. clone costs could go up and i'd pvp more, if learning implants were scrapped.

i value my sp/hour more than i value pvping. personally.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Baaldor
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#12 - 2013-10-16 19:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Baaldor
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
You know, you'd probably be more likely to get a response from CCP in the form that you're asking for if you phrased your question as a question and not a passive-aggressive rant.


Very true. Re-reading through it, I can see how it could be interpreted that way. But ask yourself this: Is it any more passive-aggressively ranting than the hundred threads were that requested lower clone costs? I think youll find that by comparison, this thread is rather tame...especially coming from me.



Well if you want a slight possibility of getting your point across to CCP, then maybe rephrase it. It has a much better chance than a rant. CCP is so conditioned to rants that it is nothing but white noise.

As far as Clone cost reduction, It never really made any sense.

My clone went from a whopping 45 mil? to 30 mil or something like that. If I have to sweat over 15 mil..i am doing something wrong.

And seriously if all it took was 15 mil to get peeps out to shoot others in the face...you would have alliances shelling out 15 million isk and struggle finding FC's to form fleets.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#13 - 2013-10-17 13:44:35 UTC
Decreasing clone costs was a mistake, the prices should increase, alot.

Also remove jump clones from the game.

The Tears Must Flow
CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#14 - 2013-10-17 13:55:21 UTC
CCP Rise is currently in the sky on his way to EVE Vegas, but when he returns I can poke him about this thread.

We probably won't release the numbers, but I think it would be really interesting to talk about the general impact of the changes.

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-10-17 14:00:02 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Decreasing clone costs was a mistake, the prices should increase, alot.

Also remove jump clones from the game.
And your logical and reasonable explanation,
that doesn't stink of hatred is?
polly papercut
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2013-10-17 14:08:56 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Decreasing clone costs was a mistake, the prices should increase, alot.

Also remove jump clones from the game.

Troll much? Any rate what happened higher SP players started to come kill you?
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-10-17 14:15:19 UTC
How can you use a metric that decreases exponentially with player experience to properly measure engagement in pvp? I'd be willing to bet that clone costs are at the least tangentially related to a player's knowledge of or ability to escape with their pod. Thus an increase in willingness to pvp will not necessarily translate into more pods lost. At least not in the direct, easily-measured way you expect.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#18 - 2013-10-17 14:19:07 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
CCP Rise is currently in the sky on his way to EVE Vegas, but when he returns I can poke him about this thread.

We probably won't release the numbers, but I think it would be really interesting to talk about the general impact of the changes.

You probably should release the numbers, if only to shame any poor bittrvets who don't take advantage of your generosity. Talk is cheap; evidence is required.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#19 - 2013-10-17 14:22:56 UTC
Eram Fidard wrote:
How can you use a metric that decreases exponentially with player experience to properly measure engagement in pvp? I'd be willing to bet that clone costs are at the least tangentially related to a player's knowledge of or ability to escape with their pod. Thus an increase in willingness to pvp will not necessarily translate into more pods lost. At least not in the direct, easily-measured way you expect.

Flying an expensive clone in a cheap ship and landing in a bubble camp negates most of the pilot skill required to not lose your pod. At least this has always been the excuse presented by those with expensive clones.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#20 - 2013-10-17 14:25:08 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
CCP Rise is currently in the sky on his way to EVE Vegas, but when he returns I can poke him about this thread.

We probably won't release the numbers, but I think it would be really interesting to talk about the general impact of the changes.


Why not give out hard numbers?
What is the rationale behind putting up a firewall around statistics like this?
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