Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Interesting idea but wont work.

Removing local from the cloakers wont make a difference at all. Most cloakers use d-scan to collect info about the system activity. They most often sit in a sweet spot in range of maximum number of belts and look for wrecks and cans. In W-space you would need to drop some probes to scan the anomaly down but in low or null you can simply warp to the belt directly and scope out the activity without any effort or dropping any clue to those that are mining / ratting.

Even with the ability to scan down cloakers in a system you wont ever get to them. Smarter players will just log in, cloak up, d-scan for anti-cloak-probes for 20 min then afk for another 20. Then go back to same routine. Except they wont afk when they are done, they will log out this time. 2h later log back and d-scan. Same **** different story.

Local will basically be a perfect tool for roamers. Lowsec and null will be an even more roamer friendly environment. Specially with the new changes coming in with Rubicon. Interceptors being able to warp inside bubbles and with the new acceleration changes they will sweep the systems and just look for a name tag in local. Soon as a name shows up they spread out in all the belts cause the chances are quite high that the guy is in a belt or a gate cause that's what local is telling you.

The changes about people in stations not getting local intel. I would love to see Jita 4-4 after that patch. Scrue 0.0 empire would become the new 0.0. Goonswarm wouldn't need to go Taliban on Hulks, they could just wardec everyone and there dog.

And the best for last. Interceptors would drop a jetcan right at the edge of a POS shield and orbit it at max speed. The lag caused by your local flashing 10 or 100 names in and out. Its a better DDOS then the mass login trick. Just imagine doing this when there are 500 v 500 battles. All those updates constantly when people go in and out of POSes.

Sorry but this idea is flawed. Still needs refining and I doubt it would be practical to code let alone be any more useful then removing local altogether.

Posting in ninja remove nullsec thread.

Nullsec is NOT wormhole space. Stop trying to make it into wormhole space without understanding the FUNDAMENTAL differences between wormholes and nullsec. (Having spent significant time in both, I can tell you that removing local will only reduce nullsec PVP even further.)

Why would anyone want to make isk in 0.0 after such a change? When you are about 100 times safer in a WH and earn one to one point five bill an hour. Risk versus reward need to be in line with each other that is something people seem to forget.

WH is fine with no local why? Because you can control the entry points to your wh and close em. Cycle your static don't warp to it after you cycle it so it does not spawn a exit point make sure no other wormholes are present in your system and you are set. The only risk remaining is someone cycling their static into your whole and droping on you while farming though that is unlikely when you are out farming with 2 triage archons 4 naglfars and at least 2 webbing lokis. By the time they are rdy to get the drop on you, you are safed up or switched to combat ships. Plus the fact that you make insane amounts of isk in a C5 means you can afford to loss a few dreads and stuff and simply not care at all.

each site fully escalated is 700 to 850mil in loot and salvage after triggering em you can farm them for 4 days straight.. each site takes 5 minutes to complete. Last week we run 30 sites a day for 4 days straight with 4 people.. end payout was about 22b per person in just 4 days about 2-3h farming per day. Now try comparing that to 0.0 bounty how much would you make in 4 days a 2-3h farming?

In comparison to that 0.0 is quite a different story we have covert cynos and normal cynos, capital drops, titan bridge drops, blackops drops and so forth.. Plus the income is simply downright ****. I fail to see why people keep farming in 0.0 space worse even pay rent for the "privilege" of doing so..

This line doesn't even make sense in the context of this thread.


Are you trying to troll? Because that just sounds confused to anyone who understands the thread.

I also spent significant time in both. Your claim of time spent has the implication of unique experience, while I can assure you it is not unique for the same reason. Been there, done that.

It is sad to see this tired argument being so often repeated.

Wormhole space is NOT the same as null without local.
Please do more research before posting such claims.

For those who may not be aware of differences beyond local:
How else is Null different from a WH:

Live and stable gate connections to other sections of space, and between internal systems.
Outposts, NPC and player built both. This includes the sub category of med clones and jump clones as an additional difference.
The Market. Present in all it's glory, even if only stocked by player activity and some minor NPC items.
Cyno capability, both covert and regular.

Both of those quotes make perfect sense.
Sure, there are other differences. I think what you miss though is when people quote wormholes it's not saying you want null to be exactly like a wormhole. It's saying the feature you do want, delayed local, only works because wormhole mechanics are built around it. Without completely destroying and reworking null mechanics, a delayed local will not work.

Thank you!

The assumption I never considered these details surprises me, but I do so appreciate the opportunity to lay them to rest.


First, that lettered section:

A. Not even close. Adaptive play always shifts towards play mechanics offering the greatest advantage.
Since being in a POS or docked effectively makes you invisible to hostiles, this will be a tactical option that is grabbed by many. Being active while mining or ratting is one thing, but that does not limit what being active means for others.

B. And D-Scan is the infallible... no, even I can't make that joke. It has range limits, and hardly tells enough about all contacts to know things with certainty. Only a fool would assume a hostile checks d-scan first, when entering a system currently. After all, those pilots not listed in local might still be there, somehow...
(HINT: If local has no targets, D-Scan is not used. Hunting things that are not present has a flawed approach)

C. Breaking station intel. Just wow. Because they don't have player supplied intel channels, as everyone refuses cooperative teamwork. yep.
If anything, Outposts should instead have an on grid overview available. Like a window you look out of before undocking. Windows, those high tech marvels used by ancient societies...

D. spoofing local data... you really come across as addicted to the notion that chat channel intel is some kind of holy grail.
It is a chat channel, really! Use intel gathering players instead, like the ones you are trying to deny the existence of with such arguments.



Minor buff to now have the ability to scan down cloaked ships. LOL.
Spoofing local... Newsflash, this is already in game! Players can log off and do this, as well as AFK cloak! Pretending this adds in totally new ways to deceive a chat channel is quite disingenuous.

Massive nerf in null system security?
I guess that means it will kill gate camps and those player driven intel channels. Funny, but the core of these used the overview as a primary intel source. Getting tips that a hostile is in system from a guy docked up safely leaves out half the value of real intel. If you don't understand that, you should avoid that aspect in future comments. Really.
As to the docked player being nerfed, give them an overview limited to the station grid.
Seriously, if they can't be bothered to ask other players or scout for themselves, null is not where they belong.

Breaks more than it fixes: you are expected to point these out for debate, not make sweeping claims about other details too numerous to mention. I have addressed your concerns here for that reason.


Suggesting low sec is more dangerous than null sec, overall, is comparable to a confession that null has evolved to be safer than low sec.

Right and wrong are often just pretty words in real human experience. We take shortcuts, and tend to do whatever we can justify getting away with.
Games are meant to reflect fictional challenges where the rules limit things. EVE is a sandbox, yes, but sometimes letting the game evolve unchecked corrupts key parts of it. Players learn to bypass challenges that define key aspects, inspiring a controversy like this.
The concept that null sec is most comparable to high sec should be questioned, as it seems improbable to reflect intended design.

Actually, for a corporation or alliance under a war dec, did you ever actually consider why they were war declared?
After all, null rules do NOT care who shoots at who, ever.

But it shuts down the protections offered in high sec. High sec, where enough activity is present that you can never operate in blue only conditions effectively.
Where your war opponent can use out of corp alts, which you cannot shoot at pre-emptively without being concordokkened.
Where these alts can pinpoint your location, and act as perfect warp ins for the real strike force, who has blanket permission to ventilate you.

Did you ever wonder why alliances under serious war decs advised their pilots to avoid high sec? To use out of corp trading alts, etc?



Maybe you have a corp, who avoids war conditions, and can be considered safe in high sec.
Honestly, as many threads can point out, only characters in NPC corps are truly safe in high sec, as it takes a suicide gank to target them.
And as any ganker can happily explain, the moment a target is known to be cost effective to gank, it will happen.

"Cloakers" are not getting preferential treatment by this thread.
But, like everyone else in null, they will have more opportunities with it.

You didn't address any of the concerns put forward.

How will your proposed changes be anything better then a perfect roaming gang tool turning local from right now a global tool for all partys to a tailored roaming gang tool? Just because you can also have invisible fleets inside pos shields wont mean it is a viable or possible tactic. No alliance will afford having a standby rescue team standing by in a pos shield and spring forward if someone gets jumped.

How can you say D-scan is a useless tool while just about every cloaked ship or rather W-space pilot uses it to determine the activity level of a system? It is in fact the current tool of knowing if the system is active at the current stage. With your proposed changes D-scan wont even be needed as the local will directly show info on activity and after the changes are made cloaked ships will have the option to uncloak, check local for 5 seconds, cloak then go back to using D-scan to pinpoint the targets. If not just warp 3-4 planets and d-scan figuring out everything about the system in less then 5 min. D-scan having a range wont be of much concern to a cloaked ship as it wont matter if it takes 10 seconds to scan the system down or 1h.

How exactly can you say that there is no point arguing about station mechanics while the proposed changes have an extreme impact requiring yet another fix with stations giving info before undock. Getting info before undocks honestly belongs to another topic and have been beaten to death arguing forth and back with CCP. We are still yet waiting for that fix as well.

Lastly its clearly a flawed point of game design giving players the ability to tamper with intel tools like local in the manner described above. Ignoring such a glaring flaw is a point of concern from any game design perspective.

All of the points above shows that null sec would just become more hostile then it already is. This is a bad thing as null sec is not supposed to be suicide space where you can instantly get jumped by 100% invisible attackers / jumped by interceptor gangs / requires extreme teamwork to earn a single isk. Maybe you should read up on what The Ironfist had to say and you might catch the hint that null space is not going to be inhabited after the proposed changes.

Quote required please.
I find it very hard to believe that local displaying a list of players was a complex bug which happened to get left in, which leads me to believe it was a designed feature. The only quote I ever seen you guys manage to whip up is a twitter comment (I believe from CCP Explorer) which simply stated his preference. I've never seen CCP officially stating their position on the matter. If it was an issue they are looking at, considering the arguments on it go back to 2004, they are taking their sweet time dealing with it.

No, the were designed to be more unknown. The are isolated, there's no fixed method to get into them, and you can;t see when you are there. The idea was that people could go in, and start up an independent colony. It was based around how the history of eve is born from the same type of event, and allows individuals to play with the same mechanic. But all of it's mechanics were designed together. It was balanced with delayed local already set. Switching null to delayed local would not be the same, as null was NOT designed with delayed local, so there would be a LOT of mechanics that would need to be changed.


Why should people adapt to what YOU want though. Why should null players be forced into a differing playstyle so you can have a nice easy time rolling around in a cloaked ship?
CCP tend to want to keep income rolling in, which explains why this change, which has been argued about since 2004 still is not changed, because they won;t just go smashing null to pieces to appease a handful of solo/small gang pilots that want easy cloak kills. When EVE appears in global media, it's not because some numpty in a bomber killed a hulk, it's because 4000 people smashed each others heads in for a few hours. You want to kill that combat to make cloakers heavily unbalanced. I have faith in CCP not making design decisions that dumb.

Stuff Nikk wrote


1. I really can't take the time to look up a quote, but I can assure I have heard video and read this. Others may step up to provide it here.
It actually was not half as useful as an intel tool originally. The names were always present, as opposed to that straw man you implied.
But they had NO standings.
You had to right click on each name, if you did not recognize them. Now, consider a system with 30 names. Now add in names that resemble each other, deliberately.
Add into this, people sometimes changed corps, effectively switching sides, so the name you thought you recognized was really not friendly the way you expected.

2. And yet it still remains that the basis was the difficulty in reaching and establishing a presence, due to the nature of wormhole connections.
All other factors contribute to the experience, yes, but it is wormhole space, not "Local Free" space.
But if you like, feel free to ask if they want local to be like in the rest of the game. They invariably say no, and they also don't want the means to hunt cloaked vessels introduced, or any limits to cloaking.
I am amused by the reaction some have to their attitude, assuming it is because of the other isolated aspects that they feel this way. They simply adapted, and moved on, really. They are not hung up over an issue they don't need to deal with.

3. I am a miner. I already roll around in a cloaked ship whenever i want, but I do not use it for PvP.
CCP will ultimately do whatever they feel results in money for them.
My idea is based around what will balance the game and make it more interesting.
Perception determines if the two sides can ever meet. Perception and reality are not hard wired together.
Who knows?