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T2 BPOs -- can I get a DEV reply?
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fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2011-11-16 21:53:38 UTC
VaMei wrote:
fido gotran over wrote:
OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone.


The market is fair for everyone. Gather several (or several hundred) of your closest friends, pool your cash, and buy a BPO.
Just like the major alliances did during the lottery. Just like they continue to do today.


Satire --- I hope
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#22 - 2011-11-16 22:17:45 UTC  |  Edited by: VaMei
fido gotran over wrote:
VaMei wrote:
fido gotran over wrote:
OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone.


The market is fair for everyone. Gather several (or several hundred) of your closest friends, pool your cash, and buy a BPO.
Just like the major alliances did during the lottery. Just like they continue to do today.


Satire --- I hope


Not one bit.

I was part of an industrial alliance during and shortly after the lottery. Those BPOs were not something that individual players bought for their own personal use. They were corp assets paid for with corp funds, and their profits funded the corperation's expansion.

Today, you can get them for prices that individual players can actually pay (granted, reasonably wealthy players).
Earlier today, there were 15 T2 BPOs on the 1st 4 pages of the WTS forum, and not trash ones either.

Edit: You're not expecting to be able to stand on 'fair ground' as an individual player competing against corperations with dozens, scores or even hundreds of organized players pooling their efforts to a common goal, are you?
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-11-16 22:37:40 UTC
VaMei wrote:
fido gotran over wrote:
VaMei wrote:
fido gotran over wrote:
OR maybe the current system is FUBARed, so the only step now is to figure out HOW we can address the issue and make the market fair for everyone.


The market is fair for everyone. Gather several (or several hundred) of your closest friends, pool your cash, and buy a BPO.
Just like the major alliances did during the lottery. Just like they continue to do today.


Satire --- I hope


Not one bit.

I was part of an industrial alliance during and shortly after the lottery. Those BPOs were not something that individual players bought for their own personal use. They were corp assets paid for with corp funds, and their profits funded the corperation's expansion.

Today, you can get them for prices that individual players can actually pay (granted, reasonably wealthy players).
Earlier today, there were 15 T2 BPOs on the 1st 4 pages of the WTS forum, and not trash ones either.


You completey miss the point. I am saying that the BPOs cannot co-exist with invention.

Its the equivalent of having a bunch T1 bpos out there without the Tritanium requirements. The people that have them would have a special advantage. I'm not saying that they MUST get rid of the BPOs I am saying that the current system is fundametally flawed.

They could fix it like I mentioned before OR Maybe they should just seed T2 BPOs on the market and get rid of invention completey.

I REALLY don't care HOW they fix it as long as it levels the playing field for everyone.
Gizan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2011-11-16 22:43:03 UTC
heres an expample, there is atleast 1 manticore bpo out there producing manticores. I can invent manticores, and sell them in jita for 1-4mil profit each AFTER INVENTING THEM! just cuz theres a t2 bpo doesnt mean the bpo is controling the market...
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#25 - 2011-11-16 22:50:47 UTC
fido gotran over wrote:
Its the equivalent of having a bunch T1 bpos out there without the Tritanium requirements.


It would be that way only if those T1 BPOs without the trit reqs cost ten or a hundred thousand times what it cost to simply use the normal BPOs.

The Light Neutron Blaster II auction running right now is at 10b isk. I could toss my bid on that auction, or I can keep paying ~4,500isk/run to invent them. Considering that the market prices for that module are currently 120% over my cost after invention, I'll keep inventing.
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2011-11-16 22:55:45 UTC
Gizan wrote:
heres an expample, there is atleast 1 manticore bpo out there producing manticores. I can invent manticores, and sell them in jita for 1-4mil profit each AFTER INVENTING THEM! just cuz theres a t2 bpo doesnt mean the bpo is controling the market...


I am not arguing that ALL T2 BPOs are killing every market. But there are some to where it clearly looks like it. The cheaper items that lower skilled people would build first would be more heavily affected especially because the cost of the invention would greatly affect the per item cost. I have given one clear example.

I have specifically asked for a DEV post on this because they have access to the data that can show how much the T2 BPOs are REALLY affecting the market.
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-11-16 23:11:31 UTC
VaMei wrote:
fido gotran over wrote:
Its the equivalent of having a bunch T1 bpos out there without the Tritanium requirements.


It would be that way only if those T1 BPOs without the trit reqs cost ten or a hundred thousand times what it cost to simply use the normal BPOs.

The Light Neutron Blaster II auction running right now is at 10b isk. I could toss my bid on that auction, or I can keep paying ~4,500isk/run to invent them. Considering that the market prices for that module are currently 120% over my cost after invention, I'll keep inventing.


Yes they would cost a lot just like the T2 bpos do so its a good example.

You are giving an specific example of where you are making good profit but my argument is about the system as a whole.

Don't you get a 10 run copy from inventing them?
If you get a 10 run copy how is invention costing you 45,000?

Even with buy prices the cores cost over 340,000 and thats for ONE attempt.
With 50% failure rate thats ~680,000 plus the cost of the invention slot. (if you have lvl5 skills this will lower the cost a little bit)

So how much profit per item are you really getting???
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#28 - 2011-11-16 23:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: VaMei
If you're looking for production rates, QEN Q2 2009 is what you're looking for.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=686

The TLDR is that 97% of completed T2 builds were from BPCs.
VaMei
Meafi Corp
#29 - 2011-11-16 23:19:34 UTC
fido gotran over wrote:
Don't you get a 10 run copy from inventing them?
If you get a 10 run copy how is invention costing you 45,000?


You got me there. It is 45,000 per run not 4,500.
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-11-16 23:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: fido gotran over
VaMei wrote:
If you're looking for production rates, QEN Q2 2009 is what you're looking for.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=686

The TLDR is that 97% of completed T2 builds were from BPCs.


The 3% is jobs but the orginals can run large numbers of runs per installed job

If you look at the next page it says that ONE THIRD of all T2 items were built from ORIGINAL blueprints.

"Tech II BPOs can be used to install a manufacturing job with an unlimited number of production
runs provided that the job completes within 30 days being installed. On the other hand, a Tech
II BPC has a limited amount of runs and will be consumed once all the runs are used up. There
are much fewer BPO jobs installed than BPC jobs even though BPO jobs account for one third
of all Tech II items produced (excluding drones and ammo)."

Also 56% of T2 ships were built with BPOs

"During Q2 2009, approximately 350,000
Tech II ships were manufactured by 6,920
different characters. 56% of these ships
were produced with BPOs, and the remaining
44% were manufactured with BPCs,"
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2011-11-16 23:30:07 UTC
VaMei wrote:
fido gotran over wrote:
Don't you get a 10 run copy from inventing them?
If you get a 10 run copy how is invention costing you 45,000?


You got me there. It is 45,000 per run not 4,500.



I was asking how u got 45,000 invention cost per print when just the datacores costs ~680,000 per blueprint at 50% success rate.
Masra lor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2011-11-17 00:49:52 UTC
fido gotran over wrote:
VaMei wrote:
fido gotran over wrote:
Don't you get a 10 run copy from inventing them?
If you get a 10 run copy how is invention costing you 45,000?


You got me there. It is 45,000 per run not 4,500.



I was asking how u got 45,000 invention cost per print when just the datacores costs ~680,000 per blueprint at 50% success rate.


He said 45k isk per RUN. (hint: there are 10 runs per bpc)
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2011-11-17 01:41:29 UTC
If we say that the production cost via invention for a ship is 150m isk, and a bpo holder can build it for 100m. Exactly why would the bpo holder, whose single print in most cases can't even cover the market demand of a single day, try to sell for 145m to ruin the inventor's day, instead of seliing for 180m like they are?

Since a single bpo can only run a single production line, there is no way to increase profit by increasing output via parallel builds. So why would one voluntarily give up half the profit?
Brock Nelson
#34 - 2011-11-17 01:48:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Brock Nelson
QEN Q2 2009 Page 35 wrote:
During Q2 2009, the average number of Tech II production jobs completed daily was 11,788..
Out of this average, 374 jobs were installed with a Tech II BPO, while the remaining 11,414 jobs
were installed with BPCs. The distribution of Tech II production jobs installed had 3% installed
with a BPO and 97% installed with a BPC, as can be seen in the figure below.


This include Ship, Module and Ammo. The exert you read about 1/3 of T2 being produced from BPO were after you EXCLUDE Ammo.

Regardless, you want to seed T2 BPO and completely **** over those players who took the time to train invention skills and acquire blueprint and manufacturing line to build t2 items? This is why you're an idiot, you want to introduce a solution that benefits you and screw over more player because YOU feel that you're not making as much isk.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-11-17 02:04:49 UTC  |  Edited by: fido gotran over
Mioelnir wrote:
If we say that the production cost via invention for a ship is 150m isk, and a bpo holder can build it for 100m. Exactly why would the bpo holder, whose single print in most cases can't even cover the market demand of a single day, try to sell for 145m to ruin the inventor's day, instead of seliing for 180m like they are?

Since a single bpo can only run a single production line, there is no way to increase profit by increasing output via parallel builds. So why would one voluntarily give up half the profit?


Do you actually build and sell anything? I sell my stuff cheaper than the stuff other people put up. If more stuff is put for sale up than sells the price goes down. If less items then the price rises because the cheaper stuff gets bought. Your idea looks at one sale and one order.

The problem is that it is possible the BPO owners in your example could produce enough to over time make the price 160m per ship and get it to where inventors risk alot if they hit an unlucky streak. Are the BPO owners suddenly going to stop production just because they are only making 60 mil per ship? how about 50? or 40? 30? Long after the inventors have gone the BPO owners can make bank ALL DAY LONG.

NOONE is addressing my example with the mining crystals . . . They are just making other "what if" examples of isolated incidents and not looking at the bigger picture. Evil
Brock Nelson
#36 - 2011-11-17 02:10:07 UTC
You keep missing the part where BPO production is not scable compared to invention...

Signature removed, CCP Phantom
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-11-17 02:31:58 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
QEN Q2 2009 Page 35 wrote:
During Q2 2009, the average number of Tech II production jobs completed daily was 11,788..
Out of this average, 374 jobs were installed with a Tech II BPO, while the remaining 11,414 jobs
were installed with BPCs. The distribution of Tech II production jobs installed had 3% installed
with a BPO and 97% installed with a BPC, as can be seen in the figure below.


This include Ship, Module and Ammo. The exert you read about 1/3 of T2 being produced from BPO were after you EXCLUDE Ammo.


"Figure 21: Distribution of the total number of completed Tech II manufacturing jobs between blueprint types. Most jobs are installed with BPCs obtained through invention as Tech II BPO owners tend to install jobs with a large amount of runs."

OK when it says 3% thats >>> INSTALLED JOBS <<<
BPC job for T2 expanded cargo = >> 10 RUNS << and 10 T2 expanded cargo
BPO job for T2 expanded cargo = >> 100 RUNS << and 100 T2 expanded cargo

"Tech II BPOs can be used to install a manufacturing job with an unlimited number of production runs provided that the job completes within 30 days being installed. On the other hand, a Tech II BPC has a limited amount of runs and will be consumed once all the runs are used up. There are much fewer BPO jobs installed than BPC jobs even though BPO jobs account for one third of all Tech II items produced (excluding drones and ammo)."

JOBS =/= RUNS

If your gonna throw data at me at LEAST know what your throwing.

How many "jobs" there were doesnt really matter - its how many ITEMS are produced and how the number of ITEMS affects the market.

Brock Nelson wrote:
Regardless, you want to seed T2 BPO and completely **** over those players who took the time to train invention skills and acquire blueprint and manufacturing line to build t2 items? This is why you're an idiot, you want to introduce a solution that benefits you and screw over more player because YOU feel that you're not making as much isk.

- - - Please google ad hominem and stop insulting people just because they disagree with you.

I am giving suggestions of HOW to fix the current situation. If the bpos were seeded then the invention skills would not be needed so CCP would refund them just like they have for ALL the other skills like learning and the social skills they changed

I am NOT saying that this is the only solution or even the BEST solution I am just talking about possible ways of fixing this problem.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#38 - 2011-11-17 02:32:18 UTC
fido gotran over wrote:
CCP PLEASE REPLY TO ME NOW! I PAY FOR THIS GAME AND THEREFORE I AM ENTITLED TO A REPLY ABOUT A GAME MECHANIC I DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND BUT DISLIKE BECAUSE I AM MENTALLY HANDICAPPED.


This is about all I can seem to glean from your posts OP
fido gotran over
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2011-11-17 02:33:59 UTC
Emperor Salazar wrote:
fido gotran over wrote:
CCP PLEASE REPLY TO ME NOW! I PAY FOR THIS GAME AND THEREFORE I AM ENTITLED TO A REPLY ABOUT A GAME MECHANIC I DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND BUT DISLIKE BECAUSE I AM MENTALLY HANDICAPPED.


This is about all I can seem to glean from your posts OP


i smell troll
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
#40 - 2011-11-17 02:45:22 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
You keep missing the part where BPO production is not scable compared to invention...


Are you trying to say that thousands of hulk invention jobs per day make more profit than the extremely limited number of Hulk BPOs? Of course you are!!

It's a clear case of Economies of Scale.

A T2 BPO can only make X number of items per day.

An inventor can invent and build as many items as they have slots and time for*.

Is it better to make 5 million ISK profit per item but only make 10 items per day (50 mil profit) or 1 million ISK per item but build 100 items (100 mi profit)?

That is why T2 BPOs are so overrated. They can only produce X number of items per day while with invention an almost unlimited number of items can be produced.


*note - people who own T2 BPOs can also invent as well, most of which do so.