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New Dev Blog: CSM Special Summit -- Meeting minutes are out

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Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2011-09-09 16:23:24 UTC
Quote:

CCP also explained that due to the realities of business and the complexities of the EVE socio-economic system, it could not give the all-encompassing and definitive answers about virtual goods that the community demanded in the days before the summit, and felt they had to maintain the flexibility to adapt to changes in the MMO environment in the future.


Translation: We want to sell things that if you knew about would have you canceling your accounts.


Quote:

CCP responded that it was already paying the long-term cost of having given such definitive answers in the past and was learning from this prior experience by not doing the same thing again.


I don't really have words to go with this. CCP only just learns that lying is bad?
Bring Stabity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2011-09-09 16:25:56 UTC
CCP Fallout wrote:
CCP Xhagen's newest blog contains the meeting minutes from the Special Summit the CSM had with CCP earlier this summer. You may read the blog, and the minutes, here.


These minutes are shameful and you should just retract them, what a hilarious slap in the face
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#43 - 2011-09-09 16:28:13 UTC

I pity the CSM for knowing about this stuff for months and still having to fight to have it released even in this form.

The minutes are a travesty.

They show CCP riding roughshod over any feedback or opinion or consultation from the player base and asserting the Hillmar mesage of "full steam ahead" at all costs.

The incarna release was not in any way shape or form a smooth success. CQ is so poorly optimized that it needs to be turned off. It uses crazy GPU resources even on one client, its almost mandatory to turn it off across multiple.

A single room with a single avatar should not be using these resources. CSM did the player base (and frankly common sense) a grave disservice to agree that the Incarna release was acceptable in the standard in which it was delivered.

The Nex section simply has the Nex advocate defending the terrible pricing strategy and ignoring any comments to the contrary. I personally wanted to see the CSM debating the whole notion of NeX as a concept and its applicability to Eve Online as a subscription driven MMO. I wanted to see some hard questions about how much Incarna content was intended to be delivered outside of the NeX store. I wanted hard numbers and commitments.

It was just a buzzword-trading joke and doesn't really come across like an emergency summit at all.

Incarna is an immense technical failure that serves only as a Nex display cabinet.
NeX is a monsterous bolted-on abortion that threatens traditionally developed content.
The Incarna expansion took away content and functionality from the Eve Client.

In short, I don't feel the emergency meeting did appropriately address my concerns as a player and these minutes leave me feeling short-changed and frustrated at the lack of penetrating debate and substantive commitment gained from CCP.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Komen
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2011-09-09 16:30:49 UTC
Quoth Weaselior: Bunch of stuff.

Agreed. First of all, these minutes are like a bad comedy routine. I sat and listened to my comp's fans spinning up to max the first time I loaded Dark Room, and then I turned it off and phew, fans winding back down. If you can't replicate the problem, CCP, maybe you're not trying hard enough.

The NeX store: Virtual goods within a game should not cost a day's real life wages for a poor/unskilled worker in an industrialized society. Your pricing is insulting to the vast bulk of your players. Your strategy either does not take into account the loyalty and trust of your fans, or considers that the money to be made from NeX is worth spending that loyalty on something so trivial.

The neglect of Flying in Space: Since CCP seems determined to include Incarna as part of Eve (it's really ******* not), I have to talk about FiS now, instead of just saying 'Eve': So get back to developing the FiS game. It's what brought us here.

Please stop squandering the loyalty of your fanbase, CCP. It is not a currency you can just print more of.
Cedric deBouilard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2011-09-09 16:36:18 UTC
I'm sorry, that was a rather dull reading; the document says nothing *new* at all, no details, no nothing and red-tape all around.
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#46 - 2011-09-09 16:36:42 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:

In short, I don't feel the emergency meeting did appropriately address my concerns as a player and these minutes leave me feeling short-changed and frustrated at the lack of penetrating debate and substantive commitment gained from CCP.


Jade, please don't make the mistake of thinking these minutes are in any way, shape, or form indicative of what actually went on at the emergency summit. It's fairly obvious from the document itself, and more so from the lengthy disagreements over "tone", that this is not an accurate summary of what was discussed.

Everything that gets officially released by CCP on this issue has been passed through a PR review process, facts be damned.

It's unfortunate.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2011-09-09 16:36:49 UTC
This is just.... bad. 8 pages of refusal to acknowledge any substantive error beyond "poor messaging" and non-committal statements about the plans for virtual goods. The promise that virtual goods will not confer "unfair advantages" is particularly choice, since it implies that "fair advantages" are A-OK. And of course, you can define "fair" in whatever way takes your fancy. Nice weasel words.
Kusanagi Kasuga
Indigo Archive
Ivy League Alt Alliance
#48 - 2011-09-09 16:38:20 UTC
I for one would like to know what previous promise to the players CCP feels they have suffered from making - if they have ended up keeping it - and whether the players would have preferred they keep it.

Because if CCP's issue with agreeing not to do something is that they won't be able to do it later, players be damned, then that's EXACTLY THE POINT of such an agreement.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2011-09-09 16:41:10 UTC
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
I for one would like to know what previous promise to the players CCP feels they have suffered from making - if they have ended up keeping it - and whether the players would have preferred they keep it.


that there would be no microtransactions in eve

oops

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2011-09-09 16:43:12 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
I for one would like to know what previous promise to the players CCP feels they have suffered from making - if they have ended up keeping it - and whether the players would have preferred they keep it.


that there would be no microtransactions in eve

oops


That's okay, there still aren't.
Kusanagi Kasuga
Indigo Archive
Ivy League Alt Alliance
#51 - 2011-09-09 16:48:34 UTC
Innominate wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
I for one would like to know what previous promise to the players CCP feels they have suffered from making - if they have ended up keeping it - and whether the players would have preferred they keep it.


that there would be no microtransactions in eve

oops


That's okay, there still aren't.


Because this isn't EVE anymore?
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2011-09-09 16:49:25 UTC
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
Innominate wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
I for one would like to know what previous promise to the players CCP feels they have suffered from making - if they have ended up keeping it - and whether the players would have preferred they keep it.


that there would be no microtransactions in eve


That's okay, there still aren't.


Because this isn't EVE anymore?


Because there's nothing "micro" about them.
Bring Stabity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2011-09-09 16:52:51 UTC
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
Innominate wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
I for one would like to know what previous promise to the players CCP feels they have suffered from making - if they have ended up keeping it - and whether the players would have preferred they keep it.


that there would be no microtransactions in eve

oops


That's okay, there still aren't.


Because this isn't EVE anymore?


It's a shell of its former self, at best
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2011-09-09 16:57:57 UTC
So then, from all the posts below the one I made last I assume more ppl noticed a clear lack of "NO! we will not be making any "gold ammo" items"
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2011-09-09 17:00:29 UTC
Vaako Horizon wrote:
So then, from all the posts below the one I made last I assume more ppl noticed a clear lack of "NO! we will not be making any "gold ammo" items"


I think it's still pretty clear they intend to go in that direction, it's just not an immediate plan.
Maven Deltor
Bad Sekta
#56 - 2011-09-09 17:02:41 UTC
minutes wrote:
The CSM leveled harsh criticism at the decision to not release all the items CCP had available when the NeX was opened. CCP replied that the decision was fully in line with the strategy of taking small steps, observing the results and then taking the next steps. The alternative would have meant releasing too much at once, which would have severely hampered CCP's ability to react to launch feedback and adjust strategy.


This statement bothers me, because from what I remember the "feedback" was highly negative, and the result was Hilmar telling the crew to stay the course. Where was the reaction to feedback and adjustment in strategy? Or was this statement a convenient excuse?
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2011-09-09 17:09:16 UTC
Innominate wrote:
Vaako Horizon wrote:
So then, from all the posts below the one I made last I assume more ppl noticed a clear lack of "NO! we will not be making any "gold ammo" items"


I think it's still pretty clear they intend to go in that direction, it's just not an immediate plan.



Its sad...

While I dont pvp in any way, shape or form ( other then getting killed.... ) I do have a few thing that keep me addicted to EVE.
1. The skill system.
2. the general flying in space...
3. the multitude of things to do ( despite being only a highsec carebear... )

But... if and/or when they implement "gold ammo" it will be the end of my accounts no matter what they say...
Raid'En
#58 - 2011-09-09 17:12:44 UTC
Esan Vartesa wrote:
Reading through it now. Wow.

If THIS is what ended up being the version acceptable to the CSM, I can't even begin to imagine how biased CCP's initial versions were.

The whole thing reads like a CCP press release, with a few defensive bits here and there.

i feel the same way.

first the text is extremely boring to read due to the way it's phrased
then i don't see it as being neutral

i'll develop later.
Ro'Kera
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-09-09 17:20:33 UTC
I canceled my autorenew for both my accounts when this whole thing went down, because I felt like CCP was just screwing with us. My alt ran out last month; this one has 80 days remaining.

These minutes don't give me any confidence at all that I'll be renewing this account before then.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2011-09-09 17:43:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
Quote:
After reading the CSM statement, Hilmar made some suggestions as to its tone. The CSM thanked
Hilmar for his advice, but decided that it properly expressed their conclusions. It was released unedited.


yes, I bet that was exactly what happen, polite and all...

--

This is what I imagine that really happen at that point:

After reading the CSM statement, Hilmar picked up the sword won in the last fanfest and immediately try to kill Mittens. Thanks to his fast spy moves, Mittens ducked and disarmed Hilmar. Then a fist fight started between the two. A huge brawl then started with the remaining CSM members grabbing Zulu and using him as a punching bag. Mittens and Hilmar epic fight lead them to the corridors and several rooms of the building. After 20 minutes Hilmar asked for parley and the fight stop. At this point Hilmar looks up and says "what is that" and when Mittens looks up he runs away never to be seen or heard to this day. After Zulu lost is conscience and Hilmar run away, the CSM statement was released unedited.

Now if something like this was in the minutes I would believe it faster then I believe in that sentence above.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)