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[Rubicon] [Updated] Interdictor Rebalance

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Author
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#161 - 2013-10-15 21:01:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vatek
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Vatek wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Vatek wrote:
This is really stupid and I have to question whether you've ever actually flown a dictor or used a mobile warp disruptor. Mobile bubbles are not a replacement for warp disrupt probes or the hictor bubble generator.


Then please explain, o wise goon, why dictors must be so underpowered to use the all-important interdiction sphere launcher? Also, I said nothing about removing the Hictor's ability to use the Warp Disruption FIeld generator.


Ask CCP. I think the sabre's in a good place firepower-wise but the entire class needs some kind of survivability buff.


I can definitely agree with you on that last point, and towards the end I said if they don't remove dictor bubbles from the game, they should at least drop the fitting reqs a bit so the ships don't get penalized for CPU so much for using them. Would you think it'd be good if they rolled at least part of the firing rate bonus into the ship, left a utility high on all of them, and buffed HP, resists, and gave extra slots? I'm just frustrated at how pathetic they are in actual combat. I mean, if you have one camping the gate, it should at least be able to contribute to the fight if you catch something with your gang you know?


I'd like to see the bubble firing rate bonus removed from the hull, given to the launcher itself as a baseline ROF (who cares about making it a hull bonus when nothing else can fit them) and have that bonus replaced with a useful survivability bonus like resists or a sig reduction of some kind. Even if they just copied the covops cloak revamp (set it to 100cpu and give the hull a bonus to fitting) it would at least give us a bunch of extra CPU to play with when all of these ships are extremely fitting limited.

I've never understood why these ships are so fragile. Hictors have ridiculous passive tanks so they can stand up to fleet firepower but dictors can't survive against a single T1 frigate or a battle industrial (especially the newly buffed ones) without logistics or ewar backup.

The mids and lows are another issue, especially on the Eris and the Flycatcher. The slot layouts on these two ships are frankly silly. The Eris should go from 2/4 to 4/2 and the flycatcher should be switched from 5/1 to 3/3. I'm aware that this homogenizes the fits quite a bit but the result is that both of these hulls end up being more competitive with the sabre for small gang work.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#162 - 2013-10-15 21:23:02 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Bocephus Morgen wrote:


The sigs are fine, dictors are already hard enough to kill when they are moving at the speeds they move.


what game are you playing ?

Shoot the dictor with a sieged dread online of course.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#163 - 2013-10-15 21:24:50 UTC
Vatek wrote:
This is really stupid and I have to question whether you've ever actually flown a dictor or used a mobile warp disruptor. Mobile bubbles are not a replacement for warp disrupt probes or the hictor bubble generator.

I assumed it was a troll.

Anchored bubbles are primarily for static combat, DIC and HIC are primarily for dynamic combat. Different roles.
Maennas Vaer
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2013-10-15 21:24:53 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Why are we seeing an Eris with split weapon bonuses? I thought the new Roden would be able to fit either/or, not be compelled to fit both. With only 4 turrets and 4 launchers, one is forced to use split weapons. At least with 5 turrets you could fit a cloak and 2 sphere launchers and have a single weapon system. Now with that set up, we'll be forced to fit an oddball launcher or turret.

Please fix the hardpoint mounts to not force Eris pilots to use split weapons. You guys phased it out of Minmatar T1, made a GREAT way to choose which weapon system you wanted for other split weapon ships (namely Minmatar Fleet Issues), and fixed the Ares' Roden bonuses for either/or. Now, you have a throwback, old-style split weapons system on the Eris.

It really should be a ship (and indeed the whole Roden line) that lets you choose which weapons system you want to use instead of only 4 of each weapon hardpoint. It's not even about damage output. Balance that around having all of one weapon on the ship. It's about optimal range/max flight time, instant weapon damage, etc. This is a step backward, Fozzie.


This.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#165 - 2013-10-15 21:45:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Interdictors ahoy!
Were making the Sabre the new Rifter, get 0wned Minmatar lololol


Yay

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE

XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#166 - 2013-10-15 22:07:40 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

4% bonus to armor resistances per level (was 5% bonus to missile velocity per level)


Every interdictor hull should have a survivability bonus like this so they're not so squishy. If the Eris can't be the scary catalyst it should be, maybe it could be a tanky one instead.

Heretic - Armor Resistance
Flycatcher - Shield Resistance

(and since active tanking is less sensible for these ships).
Sabre - MWD Sig radius reduction
Eris - Total Armor HP
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2013-10-15 22:22:38 UTC
xttz wrote:
The best way to address this (although probably too late now) is in a similar way to how old command ships worked:

1) Give the old interdictors stats geared toward small-scale pvp / gatecamping, much like the proposals in the OP
2) Use the newer destroyer models to make 'fleet interdictors' with bonuses to speed / agility / EHP.


This is an excellent idea.

Also, jesus christ, don't put mandatory split weapons on the Eris. It sucks enough already.

I'm still not seeing any reason to fly any dictor other than the Sabre in any situation small gang or large fleet, given that it's the only one with a sane slot layout, but at least the margin isn't quite as huge. But whatever, harder to get outraged about this compared to some of the other ship classes in recent memory, and at least the interceptor pass was good.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#168 - 2013-10-15 22:27:41 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Why does the minmatar ship have the least agility of the lot? In what way does that make sense?

Edit: Also giving the eris a split weapon system is dumb. Dual weapon systems work in some cases, like the Scythe fleet issue and the typhoon fleet issue. But in both cases, the ship has the slot layout and grid/cpu to support dual weapon systems.

If you want the dual weapon bonus to work, give the eris 6/6 turret/missile hardpoints.
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#169 - 2013-10-15 23:16:20 UTC
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:
xttz wrote:
The best way to address this (although probably too late now) is in a similar way to how old command ships worked:

1) Give the old interdictors stats geared toward small-scale pvp / gatecamping, much like the proposals in the OP
2) Use the newer destroyer models to make 'fleet interdictors' with bonuses to speed / agility / EHP.


This is an excellent idea.

Also, jesus christ, don't put mandatory split weapons on the Eris. It sucks enough already.

I'm still not seeing any reason to fly any dictor other than the Sabre in any situation small gang or large fleet, given that it's the only one with a sane slot layout, but at least the margin isn't quite as huge. But whatever, harder to get outraged about this compared to some of the other ship classes in recent memory, and at least the interceptor pass was good.

This seems pretty inevitable, probably not for Rubicon though, there's already 2 ships coming out on this one.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#170 - 2013-10-15 23:21:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
So the heretic becomes an armour tank with a 8/3/3 slot layout, while the gallente eris has the proper armour layout of 8/2/4 ? Given the nature of gallente being able to do both armour and shield, and ammar preferring armour (especially with a 4% bonus per level) these should be swapped around. Failing this, consider an extra mid or low slot for each ship - the current slot arrangements (except for the sabre) are sort of gimped anyway.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#171 - 2013-10-15 23:25:22 UTC
Galphii wrote:
Given the nature of gallente being able to do both armour and shield


sorry what
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2013-10-15 23:31:53 UTC
@Kat: DEFINITELY more survivability for 'dictors. As it stands right now, one funny look from well, almost anything and blap! byebye dictor (its to the point where I wouldn't trust a dual-MSE Sabre to survive bubbling something inside a C1 anom). About -20 sig is needed here to put them in line with their T1 counterparts in this category, and I think that alone will get them to the point where they can hold out on the field long enough to be useful, but still not be totally OMGWTFBBQ OP as it'd put more emphasis on actively flying around. Worth some Sisi testing though...

@Trouser on removing double bubble dictors: Don't. Go. There. Double-bubble is still a practical necessity when trying to fast-interdict both sides of a WH (as they don't enforce weapon timers).
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#173 - 2013-10-16 00:00:05 UTC
Can someone tell me which is the objectively best one? Flycatcher looks un inspiring for a first glance. it's slow and has low dps.
Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#174 - 2013-10-16 00:16:35 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Can someone tell me which is the objectively best one? Flycatcher looks un inspiring for a first glance. it's slow and has low dps.


Sabre. Nothing changes.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#175 - 2013-10-16 00:29:01 UTC
I believe the actual interdictor sphere launcher needs a revamp. Sure years ago it worked for the scale of the game, but thankfully the game has grown since then, specifically fleet battles.

I propose you limit the sphere launcher to only one fit at a time. Change the rate of fire to 3-5 seconds. Remove the bonus to the sphere launcher rate of fire and make it +1 to amount of bubbles in the launcher clip with a base amount of 0. At level 1 interdictor you can carry one bubble in the launcher and at max skill, level 5, you can have 5 loaded. Now have the reload time decently long.

With this you have a launcher that fullfills the needs of today's fleets and allows fitting room for a more logical tank so the pilot can be more than a 15 second hero. Also when the launcher is reloading, the pilot can bail off the battlefield or stay and perform some other duties like anti-tackle role without being gimped due to 2-3 launchers and a cloak.
Mr Doctor
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#176 - 2013-10-16 00:41:38 UTC
Vatek wrote:
I've never understood why these ships are so fragile. Hictors have ridiculous passive tanks so they can stand up to fleet firepower but dictors can't survive against a single T1 frigate or a battle industrial (especially the newly buffed ones) without logistics or ewar backup.

Because unlike a HiC they dont need to stay on field for their bubbles to function. They have a completely different style.
HazeInADaze
Safari Hunt Club
#177 - 2013-10-16 00:44:18 UTC
why no drone boat Eris? And why are we still on the missile/blaster combo? Who seriously does that?

I suggest Tristan bonuses with the t2 bonuses being drone damage / speed and the bubble. That is a gallente ship we can get excited about.
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#178 - 2013-10-16 00:51:03 UTC
Mr Doctor wrote:
Vatek wrote:
I've never understood why these ships are so fragile. Hictors have ridiculous passive tanks so they can stand up to fleet firepower but dictors can't survive against a single T1 frigate or a battle industrial (especially the newly buffed ones) without logistics or ewar backup.

Because unlike a HiC they dont need to stay on field for their bubbles to function. They have a completely different style.


And that style is "disposable".
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#179 - 2013-10-16 01:24:36 UTC
So while arguing with Prom about these ships Marlona brought up ditching the bubble timer too and I sort of agree a lot.

Players long ago figured a work around for that stupid timer on the sphere launcher (fit more launchers) and the fittings for the ships easily allow for this.

So that bonus is kinda dumb and doesn't really invite you to train interdictors 5.


What's being discussed currently is an ASB/AAR length reload timer for the launcher (so say 60 seconds) with a magazine in the launcher that can hold 3-5 bubbles (my number was 4, this is how many you'd get off from a 3x bubble heretic inside 1 minute with dictor 5, Marlona's was 5 but you get the idea) and ditch that stupid reduction in sphere launcher time that literally means nothing atm.

You then treat the launcher like a cov ops cloak and give it A) a limit of 1 per ship and B) the interdictors themselves get a role bonus to fitting them making them the only ship that can viably fit one.

This change might be complex but it stops the ****** throwaway multiple bubble fits we have now and allows you to use your dictors fitting to actually fit THINGS , like guns and other mods and crap.

It also allows you to give it a worthwhile bonus that prompts people to train dictors 5 (currently thats not really a thing people go out of their way to do, even if they fly dictors constantly) that people are asking for in the survivability department (hint: Sig reduction under speed)

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Vatek
Rents Due Crew
#180 - 2013-10-16 01:31:58 UTC
Mr Doctor wrote:
Vatek wrote:
I've never understood why these ships are so fragile. Hictors have ridiculous passive tanks so they can stand up to fleet firepower but dictors can't survive against a single T1 frigate or a battle industrial (especially the newly buffed ones) without logistics or ewar backup.

Because unlike a HiC they dont need to stay on field for their bubbles to function. They have a completely different style.


Not in a small gang they don't.