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Skills - why does this still happen?

First post
Author
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-10-15 18:11:29 UTC
San La Muerte wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
This could be an interesting experiment. i don't know how much SP you have or time to waste but i think if you run at enough gate camps in your pod you will eventually get zero'd.


I can't see that working as the minimum clone you can have (alpha) protects up to 900k of SP.


dang it you are right.

forums.  serious business.

Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-10-15 18:45:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
What if they just made Mining 2 a requirement for some random PVP thing? If that works for you, what if you just pretended such a requirement exists? *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-10-15 19:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kyt Thrace wrote:
PLEX for the Removal of Unwanted Skills

You DO NOT get reimbursed for skill points or skill books.


If people want to spend money to actually set them back in a game then... sure! Why not. Just don't let EA hear about this...

Personally I think it's a ******** thing to want to do. It's not hurting you or anything. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

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Jarod Garamonde
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-10-15 19:16:27 UTC
I have long been an advocate of SP remaps, and PLEXing to regain "lost" SP from temporary de-sub periods.
But I also realize that this is about as good an idea as hull tanking (ie: NOT a good idea, at all).

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#25 - 2013-10-15 19:26:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
[I can already visualize a kajillion exploits for this, and I'm not even criminally minded. Sheesh. Are you posting just to be poasting? (yup).

I too would like to know the kajillion exploits for this.

Most of them revolve around massively slimming down a deep-specialist character to the point where you hardly even have to pay clone costs for it.

Since you only ever need the outer layer of prerequisites, it's not hard to imagine a max-skilled capship pilot tootling around in a 8M SP clone, making it completely throw-away when having those level skills (and that skill depth) is actually supposed to come with a sizeable cost.

Granted, that particular problem could be patched by just having the rule that you can't delete a skill if you have any other skills on your sheet that use that particular skill as a prerequisite.
Jarod Garamonde
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-10-15 19:28:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
[I can already visualize a kajillion exploits for this, and I'm not even criminally minded. Sheesh. Are you posting just to be poasting? (yup).

I too would like to know the kajillion exploits for this.

Most of them revolve around massively slimming down a deep-specialist character to the point where you hardly even have to pay clone costs for it.

Since you only ever need the outer layer of prerequisites, it's not hard to imagine a max-skilled capship pilot tootling around in a 8M SP clone, making it completely throw-away when having those level skills (and that skill depth) is actually supposed to come with a sizeable cost.


Min/Maxing is the devil....

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
San La Muerte
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-10-15 19:30:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
[I can already visualize a kajillion exploits for this, and I'm not even criminally minded. Sheesh. Are you posting just to be poasting? (yup).

I too would like to know the kajillion exploits for this.

Most of them revolve around massively slimming down a deep-specialist character to the point where you hardly even have to pay clone costs for it.

Since you only ever need the outer layer of prerequisites, it's not hard to imagine a max-skilled capship pilot tootling around in a 8M SP clone, making it completely throw-away when having those level skills (and that skill depth) is actually supposed to come with a sizeable cost.


Sure, so you just make it that you cannot ever delete the points in a skill that is a pre-requisite for another.

We already have skill loss in the game in the form of being podded without an updated clone or losing a T3. Where's the problem in what I am suggesting? Personally, I'd prefer it if we all started with zero - it would make more sense too.

"I am the harbinger of hope.  I am the sword of the righteous and to all who hear my words I say this: what you give to this empire, I shall give back unto you" - Empress Jamyl Sarum I at her coronation.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2013-10-15 19:39:49 UTC
San La Muerte wrote:
We already have skill loss in the game in the form of being podded without an updated clone or losing a T3. Where's the problem in what I am suggesting?
Where I described it, which differs substantially from being podded in that you can pick and choose what you lose, including picking skills that can never be lost through the SP loss mechanic.

You're altering the long-term economy of SP accumulation for purely aesthetic reasons. That's not really a compelling or sensible way to balance things. Restricting it means you're introducing a fairly complex system for a ridiculously limited and minute use case, making it a questionable investment of dev time and effort.
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2013-10-15 19:43:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
[I can already visualize a kajillion exploits for this, and I'm not even criminally minded. Sheesh. Are you posting just to be poasting? (yup).

I too would like to know the kajillion exploits for this.

Most of them revolve around massively slimming down a deep-specialist character to the point where you hardly even have to pay clone costs for it.

Since you only ever need the outer layer of prerequisites, it's not hard to imagine a max-skilled capship pilot tootling around in a 8M SP clone, making it completely throw-away when having those level skills (and that skill depth) is actually supposed to come with a sizeable cost.

Granted, that particular problem could be patched by just having the rule that you can't delete a skill if you have any other skills on your sheet that use that particular skill as a prerequisite.


First, About clone costs. CCP reduced them by 30% & have stated that they want to remove them from the game. Also you are paying a PLEX to do this which at the moment is 600 mil, that is a lot of clone upgrades.

Second, CCP already has a check in the skill system, you cannot install a skill without the prerequisite. So they just reverse that check system. You will not be able to delete a skill that is required for another skill you have plugged in. Easy coding.

Third, this is a vanity addition, just like PLEX for Re-Sculpt. Yes, I am OCD about my skill sheet.

But even that said, what I do not like about this game is that to try something out you have to inject skills like I did for PI (5 of them). I decided I did not want to do PI any more or EVER again on this character. I want those skills removed. It should be my choice. I do not deserve the skill points back or reimbursed for the skill books.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

San La Muerte
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2013-10-15 19:46:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
San La Muerte wrote:
We already have skill loss in the game in the form of being podded without an updated clone or losing a T3. Where's the problem in what I am suggesting?
Where I described it, which differs substantially from being podded in that you can pick and choose what you lose, including picking skills that can never be lost through the SP loss mechanic.

You're altering the long-term economy of SP accumulation for purely aesthetic reasons. That's not really a compelling or sensible way to balance things. Restricting it means you're introducing a fairly complex system for a ridiculously limited and minute use case, making it a questionable investment of dev time and effort.


I really don't think much dev time would need to be spent on it. I do agree that, as players are never allowed to undo past decisions in any aspect of the game (name, corp history, skills, etc) that choosing to delete skills may be incongruous and start a bad trend.

I still think we should start with 0 SP though and choose our paths entirely.

"I am the harbinger of hope.  I am the sword of the righteous and to all who hear my words I say this: what you give to this empire, I shall give back unto you" - Empress Jamyl Sarum I at her coronation.

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#31 - 2013-10-15 19:48:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
San La Muerte wrote:
We already have skill loss in the game in the form of being podded without an updated clone or losing a T3. Where's the problem in what I am suggesting?
Where I described it, which differs substantially from being podded in that you can pick and choose what you lose, including picking skills that can never be lost through the SP loss mechanic.

You're altering the long-term economy of SP accumulation for purely aesthetic reasons. That's not really a compelling or sensible way to balance things. Restricting it means you're introducing a fairly complex system for a ridiculously limited and minute use case, making it a questionable investment of dev time and effort.


Pretty much all of this. What you want doesn't actually do anything functional to benefit the game. Just your OCD. The devs are better off spending time figuring out how to log off to character select and rigging the launcher to Multi account support.

The Drake is a Lie

Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2013-10-15 19:49:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
making it a questionable investment of dev time and effort.


I bet you a PLEX it would get more use than the PLEX for Re-Scuplt that CCP dev wasted time on.

And when has CCP never had questionable investment of dev time on something. This made me laugh, thanks

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#33 - 2013-10-15 19:53:06 UTC
San La Muerte wrote:


I still think we should start with 0 SP though and choose our paths entirely.


They already figured out that this was a bad idea because newbs knew fuckall about what they picked. Also in what universe do you start with industry? Every damn time anyone runs the industry career agent they have to buy the damn skill in order to build the civilian afterburners.

D:

The Drake is a Lie

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#34 - 2013-10-15 19:56:34 UTC
I think its bull **** that I have to train Mining Frigate 1 just to go PvP in a Venture. This is an outrage, and frankly I will unsub all the things unless (stuff) because (reasons) and (words).



Also, Why do I get a civy blaster and a civy mining laser on my Noobship? Why cant I get 2 civy blasters?!?!? This is also a foot stompy outrage and I plan on AFK shooting a statue with a noobship until I get my way.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#35 - 2013-10-15 19:57:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kyt Thrace wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
[I can already visualize a kajillion exploits for this, and I'm not even criminally minded. Sheesh. Are you posting just to be poasting? (yup).

I too would like to know the kajillion exploits for this.

Most of them revolve around massively slimming down a deep-specialist character to the point where you hardly even have to pay clone costs for it.

Since you only ever need the outer layer of prerequisites, it's not hard to imagine a max-skilled capship pilot tootling around in a 8M SP clone, making it completely throw-away when having those level skills (and that skill depth) is actually supposed to come with a sizeable cost.

Granted, that particular problem could be patched by just having the rule that you can't delete a skill if you have any other skills on your sheet that use that particular skill as a prerequisite.


Answer to the underlined above.

You don't think the two year investment is a big enough cost? And you don't think the PLEX investment won't more than balance out any clone cost savings?

I roll my eyes in your general direction, woman.

Mr Epeen Cool
San La Muerte
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-10-15 20:03:52 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
I think its bull **** that I have to train Mining Frigate 1 just to go PvP in a Venture. This is an outrage, and frankly I will unsub all the things unless (stuff) because (reasons) and (words).



Also, Why do I get a civy blaster and a civy mining laser on my Noobship? Why cant I get 2 civy blasters?!?!? This is also a foot stompy outrage and I plan on AFK shooting a statue with a noobship until I get my way.


I realise that you've probably just learnt about sarcasm and believe it's the most incredible thing in the world but it doesn't change the fact that nobody is outraged or threatening to unsub, merely making an observation and suggestion. Sorry if this interferes with your agenda of getting even with whoever upset you.

"I am the harbinger of hope.  I am the sword of the righteous and to all who hear my words I say this: what you give to this empire, I shall give back unto you" - Empress Jamyl Sarum I at her coronation.

San La Muerte
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-10-15 20:06:45 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
San La Muerte wrote:


I still think we should start with 0 SP though and choose our paths entirely.


They already figured out that this was a bad idea because newbs knew fuckall about what they picked. Also in what universe do you start with industry? Every damn time anyone runs the industry career agent they have to buy the damn skill in order to build the civilian afterburners.

D:


Understood - but do you really think having Mining and Industry trained to lvl 1 solves this? New players are always going to be bamboozled and it's the tutorials job to clarify things for them.

"I am the harbinger of hope.  I am the sword of the righteous and to all who hear my words I say this: what you give to this empire, I shall give back unto you" - Empress Jamyl Sarum I at her coronation.

Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2013-10-15 20:11:28 UTC
Look, just ~roleplay~ it. You have Mining 2 because you were in prison. For being a badass.
San La Muerte
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-10-15 20:15:05 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Look, just ~roleplay~ it. You have Mining 2 because you were in prison. For being a badass.


Ok but nothing happened in prison did it? Nothing, you know, bad?

"I am the harbinger of hope.  I am the sword of the righteous and to all who hear my words I say this: what you give to this empire, I shall give back unto you" - Empress Jamyl Sarum I at her coronation.

Aurilen Baxtab
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-10-15 20:43:46 UTC
Go get yourself podded without a clone. Then you'll not have any more stinky smelly mining skills. Icky! Pirate
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