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A plea for restraint for Kinhar's trial

Author
Rosen Thornn
House of Nightshade
#1 - 2013-10-15 17:46:40 UTC
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/minmatar-react-to-senate-report-call-for-elokurs-freedom/

According to new reports the trial of Kinhar Elokur should begin today October 15. I pray that both sides practice restraint and try not make this situation any worse. Enough blood has been spilled. We do not need anymore. Peaceful protests are a fine way of getting your grievences heard.

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-10-15 18:15:27 UTC
While I applaud the Federation for it's attempts to keep its Matari underclass there permanently, I can't say they are doing so as effectively as they could.

Interesting methodology though what with the illusion of possible social advancement while keeping them down at the bottom in any measurable sense with an unspoken system of discriminatory practices.


Sabik now, Sabik forever

Marnian Veroe
National Republican Party
#3 - 2013-10-15 18:51:36 UTC
Are they seriously asking for him the be released after what he did ? We are not in the Republic here.

It would be really nice if people could stop confusing murder cases in judicial courts with cases of discrimination. While I can get behind an absolute equality among citizens before the law, ethics and most importantly toward each other, I can not abide to see minorities trying to slip away from justice and the sins they have committed just by invoking "discrimination".

This one is not held in prison because he defended himself. This one is held in prison because he killed three persons, aggressors or not.
Anslo
Scope Works
#4 - 2013-10-15 19:01:47 UTC
But I bet if he was Gallente, it'd be self defense right?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#5 - 2013-10-15 19:06:21 UTC
Can we argue the semantics of the trial after the evidence has been presented. The few facts that we've been given do NOT allow us to make an accurate determination.

Seriously. Don't you people have better things to do? Ships to explode. Rocks to mine. Commodities to trade.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Marnian Veroe
National Republican Party
#6 - 2013-10-15 19:31:12 UTC
Anslo wrote:
But I bet if he was Gallente, it'd be self defense right?


I rather hope not.
Anslo
Scope Works
#7 - 2013-10-15 19:36:59 UTC
Well at least you're not a TOTALLY insane U-Nat then.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-10-15 20:31:39 UTC
People often fail to realize that when applying for a job or school, a Matari with the same credentials as a Gallentean will always be picked over the Gallentean, just so the organization in question can meet their race quota's or boast about diversity.

These "protests" are not advocating equality, rather the timeless principle of "all of us are equal but some are more equal than others". If a Gallentean killed three Matari he would go on trial too and if there was sufficient evidence to show that it was more than self defense, then he would be punished. Of course, that's assuming the Matari don't have him shot on his way to the courtroom before the trial begins or Shakor invades to try and put him on trial in the Republic.

This has nothing to do with discrimination. He killed three people, he needs to go on trial for it. That's the whole damn point of a trial, to determine whether or not the act happened or was justified. That's the law of the land, if you don't like it, go somewhere else or vote to reform it.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Marnian Veroe
National Republican Party
#9 - 2013-10-15 21:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Marnian Veroe
Anslo wrote:
Well at least you're not a TOTALLY insane U-Nat then.


Coming from you, I guess I should take that as a compliment... ?
Anslo
Scope Works
#10 - 2013-10-15 21:19:13 UTC
Trust me, it is.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#11 - 2013-10-15 23:25:21 UTC
Do we even know what Synchellean laws about self-defence even entail?
Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
#12 - 2013-10-15 23:32:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Odelya d'Hanguest
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
These "protests" are not advocating equality, rather the timeless principle of "all of us are equal but some are more equal than others".
And even equality is disobedience to nature and God. It is nothing but ideological and dangerous nonsense. Equity is what is good and just.

Quote:
The protestors, primarily of Minmatar heritage, believe Elokur's ethnicity is a factor in his continued imprisonment and have used it as a point of contention with the Senate report.
Why should his ethnicity not be an issue? Many Brutors were part of the Human Endurance Program. What “the tribes” see as part of their “identities”—like the well cultivated image of the “passionate Brutor”—and believe it has been part of there traits for eternity, is in reality the result of eugenic refinement done by brilliant scientists. And is there something more dangerous than a “passionate” man with a small brain? Those people weren't meant to roam the nightclubs, but to work in a controlled environment. Hard to imagine that he was studying.

Hang him and enslave his family. Or whatever you do with murderers in the Federation. Why make such a fuss and give him a process?
Nashuar Attor
Rat Kings Crew
#13 - 2013-10-15 23:53:42 UTC
If there is no discrimination then why hasn't there been any bail posted?
Lets not forget that it's common knowledge that he was attacked first, making this a clear case of self defence. Yes, yes I know he then went and killed all three of them, possible as they ran away, and as a Brutor tribesman myself I can say there is no honour in chasing down cowards and killing them as they **** themselves and call for their mothers. It is deplorable.
And it may well be the case that he did indeed use unreasonable force. We shall see what the courts say about that.
The simple fact is, if this was a Gallente then bail would have been posted while the trial is awaited. There is unashamed bias in this case. The fact that he is a poor immigrant student who lost his head is no reason not to offer him what any other citizen in the Federation would get.

It seems to me that as the years go by the Federation is becoming more and more authoritarian and harsh with the people who live in it. I lived in the federation for several years, and it seems to have wandered a long way from it liberation ideals it held not so long ago.

You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-10-16 00:24:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
And even equality is disobedience to nature and God. It is nothing but ideological and dangerous nonsense. Equity is what is good and just.


The Federal Government is secular and thus it would be in everyone's best interest not to bring your religious beliefs in regards to Federal Law.

Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
Why should his ethnicity not be an issue? Many Brutors were part of the Human Endurance Program. What “the tribes” see as part of their “identities”—like the well cultivated image of the “passionate Brutor”—and believe it has been part of there traits for eternity, is in reality the result of eugenic refinement done by brilliant scientists. And is there something more dangerous than a “passionate” man with a small brain? Those people weren't meant to roam the nightclubs, but to work in a controlled environment. Hard to imagine that he was studying.

Hang him and enslave his family. Or whatever you do with murderers in the Federation. Why make such a fuss and give him a process?


It's extremely arrogant to assume someone is less intelligent than you based entirely on race. If we were doing that, then judging by the simple and sometimes even hilarious ways Minmatar have escaped from or rebelled against their holders, the Amarr wouldn't be one to talk. However we don't operate like that and view people the way the present themselves. He is a student and from what I could recall, a pretty good one at that.

We're giving him process because that's what the law says we should do. It's entirely possible that the "self defense" claim is legitimate and this student truly could not have saved his life without taking the lives of the attacker. On the other hand, it's equally possibly that his attackers were easily fended off and the student killed them out of vengeful spite.

Nashuar Attor wrote:
If there is no discrimination then why hasn't there been any bail posted?


Because he wasn't able to afford bail or he didn't have friends or family that were willing/able to afford his bail. Ta-da! The government isn't going to post bail for you. This isn't a welfare state as much as people think it is.

Nashuar Attor wrote:

It seems to me that as the years go by the Federation is becoming more and more authoritarian and harsh with the people who live in it. I lived in the federation for several years, and it seems to have wandered a long way from it liberation ideals it held not so long ago.


We are at war and it is because of the treasonous actions of our own allies and citizens. If Shakor didn't attack the Yulai station and Eturrer didn't sabotage our response systems, we would of been able to withstand the Caldari assault.

What good is liberty if you can't defend it?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Nashuar Attor
Rat Kings Crew
#15 - 2013-10-16 01:39:50 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:


We are at war and it is because of the treasonous actions of our own allies and citizens. If Shakor didn't attack the Yulai station and Eturrer didn't sabotage our response systems, we would of been able to withstand the Caldari assault.

What good is liberty if you can't defend it?


Sadly Fred it seems the be the people who the said liberty apparently belongs to, are the people who are bearing the brunt of the defending. The greater the threat from the outside, the more punishment the federation is heaping upon the people who live there. Like an angry parent unable to express their frustration and taking their anger out on the family they are supposed to be protecting.

And my initial point is that no bail seems to have been set. He may not have any money, but be assured that there are many who would come forward to pay the bond on him.

You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel.

Laurentis Thiesant
Institute of Social Development
#16 - 2013-10-16 01:42:33 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Can we argue the semantics of the trial after the evidence has been presented. The few facts that we've been given do NOT allow us to make an accurate determination.

Seriously. Don't you people have better things to do? Ships to explode. Rocks to mine. Commodities to trade.


He makes a reasoned point.
For whatever came out of the Senate inquiry, or for whatever has come from the news reports going on recently - this case in its position as a judicial hearing should not be considered part of that.

We should not be in the business of publically attempting to politically force the hands of those enforcing our laws. Our courts do not, and should not, cave to any protesters - no matter how many weapons they bring to bear in the system.

I am confident in the ability of the legal system to come up with an appropriate response to M. Elokur's crime, and make no mistake he did commit a crime if the allegations are true, the only thing being questioned is if there are mitigating circumstances which are valid enough to save him from punishment.

I eagerly await the outcome of this trial, and call on all proper federate citizens to respect the outcome in a lawful and civilized manner.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#17 - 2013-10-16 01:49:20 UTC
Fifty kredits on manslaughter, or whatever they call it in Synchelle.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#18 - 2013-10-16 02:04:55 UTC
Nashuar Attor wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:


We are at war and it is because of the treasonous actions of our own allies and citizens. If Shakor didn't attack the Yulai station and Eturrer didn't sabotage our response systems, we would of been able to withstand the Caldari assault.

What good is liberty if you can't defend it?


Sadly Fred it seems the be the people who the said liberty apparently belongs to, are the people who are bearing the brunt of the defending. The greater the threat from the outside, the more punishment the federation is heaping upon the people who live there. Like an angry parent unable to express their frustration and taking their anger out on the family they are supposed to be protecting.

And my initial point is that no bail seems to have been set. He may not have any money, but be assured that there are many who would come forward to pay the bond on him.


And you wouldn't consider him a flight risk? I would.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Rioghal Morgan
Pixel Navigators
AimogMart
#19 - 2013-10-16 02:16:41 UTC
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
And even equality is disobedience to nature and God. It is nothing but ideological and dangerous nonsense. Equity is what is good and just.

Why should his ethnicity not be an issue? Many Brutors were part of the Human Endurance Program. What “the tribes” see as part of their “identities”—like the well cultivated image of the “passionate Brutor”—and believe it has been part of there traits for eternity, is in reality the result of eugenic refinement done by brilliant scientists. And is there something more dangerous than a “passionate” man with a small brain? Those people weren't meant to roam the nightclubs, but to work in a controlled environment. Hard to imagine that he was studying.

Hang him and enslave his family. Or whatever you do with murderers in the Federation. Why make such a fuss and give him a process?


Kindly keep your barbaric views on what is good and just to yourself. The Federation needs no lessons on morality from slavers and zealots.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#20 - 2013-10-16 03:12:43 UTC
Laurentis Thiesant wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Can we argue the semantics of the trial after the evidence has been presented. The few facts that we've been given do NOT allow us to make an accurate determination.

Seriously. Don't you people have better things to do? Ships to explode. Rocks to mine. Commodities to trade.


He makes a reasoned point.
For whatever came out of the Senate inquiry, or for whatever has come from the news reports going on recently - this case in its position as a judicial hearing should not be considered part of that.

We should not be in the business of publically attempting to politically force the hands of those enforcing our laws. Our courts do not, and should not, cave to any protesters - no matter how many weapons they bring to bear in the system.

I am confident in the ability of the legal system to come up with an appropriate response to M. Elokur's crime, and make no mistake he did commit a crime if the allegations are true, the only thing being questioned is if there are mitigating circumstances which are valid enough to save him from punishment.

I eagerly await the outcome of this trial, and call on all proper federate citizens to respect the outcome in a lawful and civilized manner.


As a point, I was told that juries and judges are not permitted to even view news pieces on their point of inquest once the trial begins, so that their judgement is not colored. Obviously, that would be nigh impossible to enforce completely, but I'm curious to see how well that works practically. Will all of this hullabaloo and coverage color the jury before they even step into the courtroom?

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

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