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(Forward) How long can we fight?

Author
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-09-08 17:59:10 UTC
Huh.

How about another drink then, Caellach?

~Malcolm Khross

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
#22 - 2011-09-08 18:02:19 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:


Your evaluation of humankind's threats is strange, considering Capsuleers are the biggest threat to its existence.

I have been in and studied your kind for nearly a decade now, evaluating. Can you grasp the horrifying revelation I had when the data said the Nullsec wars are fought for fun? That is the driving force of Capsuleers in the Nullsec territories: the pursuit of war in the name of fun. No other ideology guides the main body of the Capsuleers, everything is eventually subsumed into that one goal. Some, admittedly, resist or attempt to overcome that - these ones I respect, for some shred of human decency exists still.

Undeniably, however, your kind's inflated sense of false immortality has been rattled by Nation. The unassailable truth has chipped away at the false godhood your kind has created, and for that Capsuleers attempt to turn everything against it. What will your kind do, when all the galaxy unites within Nation against you? No more human crew for you to throw away into some pointless 'fun filled' war?

Perhaps, if I had the audacity to hope, you are different Aphoxema G and can see the threat Capsuleers pose to humanity. Disappointingly, the evidence is to the contrary thus far.

True Slave Foundations Overseer

ϕ

Myxx
The Scope
#23 - 2011-09-08 18:43:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
Ghost Hunter wrote:
Aphoxema G wrote:


Your evaluation of humankind's threats is strange, considering Capsuleers are the biggest threat to its existence.

I have been in and studied your kind for nearly a decade now, evaluating. Can you grasp the horrifying revelation I had when the data said the Nullsec wars are fought for fun? That is the driving force of Capsuleers in the Nullsec territories: the pursuit of war in the name of fun. No other ideology guides the main body of the Capsuleers, everything is eventually subsumed into that one goal. Some, admittedly, resist or attempt to overcome that - these ones I respect, for some shred of human decency exists still.

Undeniably, however, your kind's inflated sense of false immortality has been rattled by Nation. The unassailable truth has chipped away at the false godhood your kind has created, and for that Capsuleers attempt to turn everything against it. What will your kind do, when all the galaxy unites within Nation against you? No more human crew for you to throw away into some pointless 'fun filled' war?

Perhaps, if I had the audacity to hope, you are different Aphoxema G and can see the threat Capsuleers pose to humanity. Disappointingly, the evidence is to the contrary thus far.

I don't think the Nation is capable of uniting the galaxy against ... well.. itself. Even if it did.. the collective might of capsuleers far outweighs that of the Nation.

I'm truthfully unafraid of you, or your bosses, Ghost.
Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#24 - 2011-09-08 19:17:49 UTC
Aphoxema G.
Your response to my question was very helpful. The Disciples of Ston grieve over slavery of all kinds, especially that of the Sansha. We will communicate support for your cause in any way we may find. Please don't lose heart in the fight for freedom. Take courage my daughter and fear not. May courage be your banner.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#25 - 2011-09-08 19:32:34 UTC
Ghost,

Some capsuleers may be a threat to humanity, and many may have lost sight of having a cause and purpose aside from revelry and entertainment. That does not mean all of us have.

Just as not all of Sansha's supporters are rhetoric-spouting imbeciles, not all capsuleers are ship-destroying thrill-seekers. There are negatives on both sides of this field.

I find it humorous that you say you have studied "our kind," when you are, in fact, one of us. You are a capsuleer just as I and together we represent the dynamic range of viewpoints, philosophies, perspectives and ideals that drive us.

Nation is but one threat against humanity. But while all of Nation seeks to bring humanity into its collective fold, fulfilling the Utopian vision of one man, it remains a greater threat than capsuleers - who have not united to subjugate humanity.

~Malcolm Khross

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#26 - 2011-09-08 20:21:03 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Huh.

How about another drink then, Caellach?


Deal, send me a mail when you've time to spare.

Ghost,

Yes among us there are threats to humanity, and in time will be brought to account for what they have done. Yet none are a greater threat than your master and his "vision".

I took up this position of eternal service to defend humanity, and protect the ideals of free thought, free speech and free will for all. That so long as one does not impend themselves upon the rights of others they are free to express themselves in what manner they choose. With that comes consequences obviously, but consequences come about because others have the right to think for themselves too.

That's the beauty of it, you might think because you have the right to do what you want you can be an ass, others have the right to avoid you, or if you go too far that you impose yourself on someone else's liberties through whatever means, they draw the line and stop you. A collective responsibility, a community that looks after itself, but at the core is made of individuals who are very much different from one another.

A society where all are free might not be perfect. People will not always agree with one another, but have the respect to recognise someone else's opinion and leave it there. They wouldn't force them into slavery and punish them till their will is broken and they are forced to think in the same way. Or as your master would have it, simply kill all hope of free thought, and control the galaxy as he sees fit, with everyone forced to follow his ideals with no notion of free will to even give hope of resistance.

I could go on to being demanding to know who the hell your "esteemed leader" thinks is he, and what credentials he has that give him the right to judge how we should all think, feel and act at all times. But that's a whole other topic of discussion in itself.

The fact is Ghost, I swore to defend the ideals I stated above, and Nation is the biggest threat to those ideals. So I deal with the biggest issue first, and will continue until it is a threat no longer to the human way of life. Or, and I damn well hope this stays purely hypothetical, a greater threat comes along that requires more urgent attention.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
#27 - 2011-09-08 20:33:33 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:


You almost see it, but not the whole picture it seems.

It is not some Capsuleers that may be a threat to humankind. It is the vast majority who are a threat to humankind. They do not explicitly target humans in their uncontrolled ways, but the collateral damage is enough cause endangerment. Perhaps you are, hopefully, not one of these Capsuleers.

Capsuleer Empire markets in Highsec ultimately serve to fuel their rampage. Rudimentary market observations is enough, disregarding years of observations, to see that the most movement goes outbound into the Nullsec territories. From the Nullsec territories, Capsuleer alliances transport materials to the Highsec shipyards protected by CONCORD. Some resources remain in the Capsuleers' shipyards in Nullsec, although those are usually for unsanctioned constructions.

CONCORD protects the backbone of major military powers, and the Capsuleers lure prospective crew members with lucrative contracts. Good men and women sign aboard, only to die within weeks - if not hours - after their contracted ship explodes in some hedonistic fun. Capsuleers lust constantly for more battles and greater conflict: it is the driving principle of their Nullsec organizations. Eventually, their need for crew members will out pace what human kind can replace. This is not even beginning to touch upon the moral depravity of so many people dying meaninglessly.

To study your kind, Malcolm Khross, I made the sacrifice to become one. I suffered for it gravely, but through that I have discovered how proper control can be realized. Now others of the Foundations come into it, safeguarded from the horrors of your kind.

Nation is no threat to humanity when it embodies its noble ideals. People have been taught to fear the Nation because they were told to - a self propagating fear that exists on untrue foundations. It is convenient for you to think the Nation a great threat, when you do not understand the real enemy within.

True Slave Foundations Overseer

ϕ

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#28 - 2011-09-08 20:47:51 UTC
It continues to amuse me how Nation supporters consistently say that I "fear" Nation because I do not understand it.


It is impossible that I am simply opposed to it, like I am opposed to any number of similar "ideals" and "dreams." I have asked about your Nation, I have studied your Nation carefully, I have listened to the words of you and other Nation supporters.

If I am still ignorant of Nation, then I accept that. I choose to remain ignorant because nothing I have seen or heard makes me have any desire to support Nation or see its plans come to fruition.

~Malcolm Khross

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
#29 - 2011-09-08 21:52:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghost Hunter
Malcolm Khross wrote:

Understanding from outside observation only goes to a certain extent. This is why I find the notion of familiarity with the Nation among outsiders strange. To truly understand the Nation, you must become involved with it - lived within it. If, after that period, you deny it then I will believe you have done enough to understand it.

It is for that reason I find ignorance such as yours tragic, Malcolm Khross.

Caellach Marellus wrote:


How true is your 'freedom' and 'individualism' when I can see disagreements with the idea even among Caldari and Minmatar?

The basis of your function is rendered invalid by the evidence that freedom and individual rights simply do not exist. They are artificial human constructs created in an unenlightened era, driven by ignorance. I could, perhaps, consider their goals noble if it were not for the virulent parasitism they have mutated into.

Freedom and individualism promote human thinking to consider the self before the group. They prompt a person to use their will as if the choice was entirely their own. Yet, even in the Federation, the 'defenders of Freedom', one can see that this is not true. Social peer pressure compels thinking, rampant advertising endeavors to influence thinking and control spending, ancestral culture from centuries ago influence law today. Do the Jin-Mei still possess that archaic caste system?

What of your precious rights? Unassailable human 'rights'? How quickly do those rights disappear when desperation emerges? I distinctly recall the Federation removing the right to vote by Caldari occupied systems. I know for certain human women suffer a lack of rights the most, shunted away and savagely imprisoned because they can do what men cannot.

Freedom never existed, it was a concept created to give humans comfort in a dark era. Now it is time to let go of it, and to accept our reality for what it is. It is not a journey that must be made alone, for Nation shows we can do it together. That chasm that separates humans from one another can be crossed. We do not need to hide under false ideals anymore, Caellach Marellus.

True Slave Foundations Overseer

ϕ

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#30 - 2011-09-08 23:16:55 UTC
Ghost.

The fact that the Matari and Caldari have the right to disagree is the basic beginnings of it. I never said what I fight for is something that currently exists, there are many things far from the ideal notion that with time, with reasoning and with understanding can be brought together.

I agree with you, suprisingly, on the notion that it is human error that has lead these ideals astray, even those who are meant to lead this noble cause. I support the ideals of the Federation, the basic principles remain unchanged throughout time, that doesn't mean I support the leaders who have long forgotten them to serve their own means better.

Culture is not forced to change, people speaking their mind and offering an alternative view, showing a different way of thinking and reasoning, is not forced. No one put a gun to anyone's head and told them to abolish everything they held dear and do things the way they're expected to. End of the day, they had a choice and chose to change, it came with outside influence giving them the idea of change, but they still chose it themselves in the end.

Freedom does exist, I have the freedom to make the decisions on what I wish to do in life, how I choose to live it, and how to go about reaching the goals I have set for myself. You made your choice to follow Kuvakei, at least I assume you do, I could question how you've had no free will and you're merely a controlled voicebox. That said I don't have proof either way, so I'll assume the better, that you chose your path, the same way I've chosen mine.

You suggest I put my future, all my decisions, my basic human rights, in the hands of another man who has shown me nothing to have faith in him? Sorry Ghost, but I can't do that. Nor can I in good conscience allow others to be taken against their will through means of control and forced to lose all traces of individual thought and personality because your master thinks he knows better for everyone.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#31 - 2011-09-08 23:50:37 UTC
Ghost Hunter wrote:
Malcolm Khross wrote:

Understanding from outside observation only goes to a certain extent. This is why I find the notion of familiarity with the Nation among outsiders strange. To truly understand the Nation, you must become involved with it - lived within it. If, after that period, you deny it then I will believe you have done enough to understand it.

It is for that reason I find ignorance such as yours tragic, Malcolm Khross.



Huh. Considering "living within Nation" involves giving up part or all of who I am in the process, no thanks. Refute it if you will, but there is evidence abounding to prove my point.

The tragedy is that some would take your words to heart and submit to the Nation out of a desire to understand it and never be able to turn away.

That is tragedy.

~Malcolm Khross

Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#32 - 2011-09-09 14:28:43 UTC
Ghost Hunter,

I know to you it may seem that Kuvakei's offer is a wonderful place for Humanity to go. Just being alive is hard work, full of constant adversity and it really doesn't help that other humans often get in the way of it. We are both designed to suffer and cause suffering.

We wage war over the silliest things and take pride in how well we can murder and destroy. We steal when we don't need to to survive. We subjugate people into our delusions. We exploit, extort, backstab, blackmail... we have so many more words for terrible things than wonderful things. We are monsters.

With all this in mind, Sansha's covenant is paradise, a solution to all woes. He has a very clear alternative to us making awful choices; when we can only make the choices he allows, we no longer need to feel responsible for what we are chosen to do.

But we only need to look at the decisions he has allowed the Nation to make... in attempts to capture us for our new lives, our resistance has forced them to do the terrible things that Sansha promises to make us stop. So many have died as a result of the attacks and this was before the current campaign to conquer the cluster.

You're right in that people do not understand what you see. Because you take the position you do it is obvious that you think differently than those who haven't. This isn't unique to the Nation, though.

You've cited nullsec battles as an example to how terrible we are, that they wage war for fun. But many of us agree, it is horrible that these power-drunk alliances do these things in the name of recreation. We are in agreement with you. We agree with you that people can do terrible things at the expense of others.

There really are more positions that the average capsuleer is in agreement with the Nation. How could we agree on anything when we're so different? Kuvakei wants to strip us of everything we truly are! He wants to force us into his will and effectively cause death by taking our individuality!

But there really is a lot in common with our morals and Kuvakei's morals. He has proven that he still holds his own sense of humanity, he is a good person and he believes he is doing the right thing. The problem is his ethics.

I hate philosophy. Other people can talk about it all they want but I find the intellectual discourse over the nature of existence boring. I'd rather talk about what we've had for breakfast than life and the universe. However, this is where we need to consider philosophy and apply it to reality.

I want you to consider if Sansha had conquered the entire star cluster and remained the only sentient person alive. What should he do next?
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#33 - 2011-09-09 15:52:12 UTC
Allow me to say I dont understand about 90% of what has been said in this thread, but my humble answer to the original question?

Until the fight is finished, or we are.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#34 - 2011-09-09 16:06:42 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Allow me to say I dont understand about 90% of what has been said in this thread, but my humble answer to the original question?

Until the fight is finished, or we are.


A very different responce to your reply to this question in the old IGS forum. Change of heart Captain?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#35 - 2011-09-09 16:08:59 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:


Until the fight is finished, or we are.


As simply put as it need be.

~Malcolm Khross

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#36 - 2011-09-09 16:17:30 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
Allow me to say I dont understand about 90% of what has been said in this thread, but my humble answer to the original question?

Until the fight is finished, or we are.


A very different responce to your reply to this question in the old IGS forum. Change of heart Captain?


Not really.

Sansha is a threat. However, he is a threat that I have had no involvement in, quite simply, because the fight against him has gone quite well without me.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-09-09 16:21:46 UTC
Ghost Hunter wrote:
Aphoxema G wrote:


Your evaluation of humankind's threats is strange, considering Capsuleers are the biggest threat to its existence.

I have been in and studied your kind for nearly a decade now, evaluating. Can you grasp the horrifying revelation I had when the data said the Nullsec wars are fought for fun? That is the driving force of Capsuleers in the Nullsec territories: the pursuit of war in the name of fun. No other ideology guides the main body of the Capsuleers, everything is eventually subsumed into that one goal. Some, admittedly, resist or attempt to overcome that - these ones I respect, for some shred of human decency exists still.


While I disagree with you on principles, I respect this statement.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#38 - 2011-09-09 16:37:02 UTC
Ghost Hunter wrote:

Nation is no threat to humanity when it embodies its noble ideals. People have been taught to fear the Nation because they were told to - a self propagating fear that exists on untrue foundations. It is convenient for you to think the Nation a great threat, when you do not understand the real enemy within.


How many have died to Nation attack forces now? Every ship Kuvakei's fleet destroys contains humans lives which are lost, and as we've all seen Nation forces are quite adept at destroying ships. Now, I'm not discrediting what you're saying (your statements about the nullsec alliances in particular are of course true; I despise them), but in the light of everything Nation comes out with bloody hands as well. There is no faction in the cluster that hasn't spilled blood, and at times for wrong reasons to boot.

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
#39 - 2011-09-10 17:16:11 UTC
Hnn. Humorously, perhaps I should have opened more time in my schedule.

Caellach Marellus wrote:


Disagreement within human systems is not indicative of free well, Caellach Marellus. This will be clear contextually in a moment.

Culture is not forced to change until it becomes too great a burden to bear. Culture is a manifestation of human thought, repeating traits that belong to a group for particular reasons. Human beings venerate culture and place it upon a pedestal, separate from themselves yet influenced by it. It is only when the culture becomes too much, a weight too great to carry, do the people acquire the collective thought needed to change it - evolve it.

My specific example references the Jin-Mei. You may or may not see that a 'gun' was put to their head, as you choose to phrase. As a culture, they were dwarfed by the immensely larger Gallente Federation - both in terms of military and economic potential. What 'choice' did the ruling castes have but to compromise their culture in order to survive? I certainly do not think they as a people decided it for their culture does not operate in such a way. Caldari State patriots may offer better insight on this particular topic, I think.

Free will is an illusion masquerading as the truth. It is a purely human construct and this causes it to be tangible. Human systems receive input and appropriately create an output. No decision making is ever done because of a chaos choice: all reasoning and logic can be analyzed and reproduced. Erase the human operating system and you cease all output entirely. Recreate the same input and the same output will be produced again. Decision making occurs according to the input received - it is not an inherent trait that transcends the human system.

Nation does not erase human thought or personality for that is entirely counter-productive. Thoughtless machines is a simple objective to achieve - the Autonomous Machines and Gallente drone technology are examples of this. Nation, I dare to say, does more than that. These seemingly insurmountable chasms between people are bridged and they are brought together within the unity. Master's ingenious designs are the tools to ending our miserable differences without forgoing humanity altogether.

Aphoxema G wrote:


There it is - that thinking I despise. Suffering is not an inherent trait, it is a virulent sickness almost as damaging as free will. No human being is born to suffer or to cause it, it is a product of the human environment that conditions them into that role. Suffering does not validate itself, nor does it justify happiness by providing an asinine comparison.

You Capsuleers had the option - you could have laid down your arms and taken my Master's generous offer. There would have been no shame; the contrary even, it would have been marvelous to see an end to Capsuleer rampages. Instead your kind continues to throw human lives away and pointlessly resist Nation's eternal might. The blame is not with Master Sansha or Nation, it is with you.

You agree with me that the Nullsec Capsuleers are a problem, but do you act? I have seen and listened to many 'humane' Capsuleers lament about the Nullsec problem, yet they never do anything. Disorganized and divided by your own differences you cannot band together to defeat them. If for no other reason, this alone would give you meaning to join Nation to eliminate the Nullsec Capsuleers. As you are, nothing will be reached - but within Nation you could have achieved something.

If you see the common good between your morals and Master's, why do you hesitate? Is it because a century of slander by the Empires has so thoroughly colored Nation into your worst nightmare? Is it because all you ever see is the True Power fighting back against your heinous advances? If you see Master Sansha as a good person then I cannot see why you disagree with His ethics. All that I can see from you is a fear of the unknown and misunderstood.

I will not bother considering your final question simply because the nature is impractical. Master Sansha knows more than me, He is more experienced, and much more wise. I avoid indulging in the presumption I could understand His reasoning entirely. Some is simple for me to grasp, but on others I simply trust His judgment for it is completely beyond me. I take no shame in admitting that.

True Slave Foundations Overseer

ϕ

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#40 - 2011-09-10 20:29:54 UTC
Ghost,

I agree that "free will" is an entirely misunderstood concept, but I would hardly call it an illusion.

The catch is that most substitute free will for individuality and they are not entirely the same thing, nor are they entirely different.

Here is where my problem with Nation exists:

You stated above that Nation seeks to remove our "miserable differences" and not our humanity. I understand the desire to remove such things but I disagree entirely with the practice of doing it.

Yes, humans cause suffering, yes we cause war and turmoil. These are caused by our differences which are a result of our individuality. You will never bring humanity to eternal, uninterrupted peace unless you remove our differences, but doing so will remove our individuality. What Nation does is force conformity, not unity. It removes anything that conflicts with its overall vision and plan for humanity and therefore forces submission to its ideals, this is conformity not unity.

Our individuality is also the catalyst for art, invention, innovation, compassion, philanthropy and many more positive attributes of humanity. You cannot remove the negative without also neutralizing the positive. Ergo, doing so results in a completely re-educated, forced conformist that is no longer an individual but a drone.

If I must continue to stand against the negative aspects of humanity in order to appreciate and embrace the positive, then I will do so happily.

It is that simple.

~Malcolm Khross

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