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BIG issue with Bastion

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Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
#41 - 2013-10-14 15:12:28 UTC
Isn't the OP about the ship just being a bit too vulnerable while on Bastion?

A dread, carrier or rorqual is never alone. Should a DC happen, you can rep them and keep them up while you come back to retake control.

A marauders is being treated as a capital, while being as tanky as a battleship with less buffer. They are different ships, different roles. Ok, keep bastion cycling and then e-warp, but the ship has pityful HP to survive that DC, and no fleet supporting it. It's mostly a solo ship, forever alone.

Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#42 - 2013-10-14 15:40:18 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Just cause you're in a Marauder as opposed to a pirate bs doesn't mean you deserve to die more than you would in a different ship.

It also doesn't mean you deserve to die less.


How do you die less? If you DC in a ratting ship that isn't a Marauder, you will E-warp and sit somewhere in space till your NPC timer runs out.

If you're in a Marauder your e-warp will fail. OP is asking that on DC when the game E-warps your ship, Bastion is automatically cancelled and E-warp initiates. This does not remove the 5 minute NPC timer that other ships have to contend with, and your ship is just as vulnerable to the same risk of being probed down and killed if you fake a DC when reds appear.


The very real issue however is on a legitimate DC, your ship doesn't e-warp and it's stuck there taking hits, with SiSi crashing a lot this week, I had 4 instances of this today, and only by sheer luck of reconnecting fast enough did I return to pull the ship out of hull damage in time. Had I been any slower it'd be a wreck, not because it was pointed, but because Bastion mode locked the Marauder there.

Sure there are capital ships that face the same issue, but the EHP of a capital ship is significantly larger that a DC won't be a high risk death sentence in PvE. Buffing the marauder's EHP would be utterly stupid, asking for Bastion mode to stop on DC and then E-warp however is a balanced request.


Again, this would be the same as any other subcap ship, if they DC they e-warp off and you've 5 minutes to probe it down, the same would exist here. Your argument that it prevents people ganking you is very much incorrect, you just do what you would do against any other ship that pulled a logoffski.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#43 - 2013-10-14 15:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Mioelnir wrote:
Permarun Tank: you will survive a disconnect.
Not-Permarun tank: you may survive a disconnect. Or not.

That is really nothing new.


This would be fine if all the disconnects I experienced based on crashes in SiSi testing turned off every module but the Bastion module, which it cycles out. But it doesn't attempt a second E-warp when Bastion ends, it just sits there, with Bastion off and everything else switched off long before.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#44 - 2013-10-14 16:26:32 UTC
If D/Cing disabled bastion, then players could intentionally d/c to get out of being immobilized.

Example: I enable Bastion to shoot at some stuff really far away. I see local spike and some stuff coming to tackle me. I disable my internet connection and now I e-warp away
YesYes NoNoNo
Karmic Rebalance
#45 - 2013-10-14 16:35:28 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
No. You should not be able to save a dead ship just because you pull out your network cable.

Disconnections are a fact of life, learn to live with it. A logistic in a chain disconnects, an incursion group wipes. An FC disconnects, an entire fleet can wipe. None of these deserve any more or any less protection than your solo PvEboat.

Never fly what you can't afford to lose and all that.


Except a logi in a chain disconnects, an incursion group doesn't actually wipe.
An FC disconnects, the fleet doesn't wipe.
Both of these are down to the behaviour of the remaining people on grid. And in both of these, your ship warps off grid unless pointed.
In the case of a Marauder. Because all active mods stop, you die before you can reconnect against straight NPC rats. This is not going to escape PvP, this is not going to magically get you off grid when scrammed. But, this will get you off grid when not scrammed, same as every other ratting ship.
Otherwise this will be a very expensive time consuming effort by CCP that will actually make Marauders used LESS than currently.


Except when one of 3 logis in an incursion group dc's, THEY DO WIPE. I've been there personally.

Same with when the FC discos - I've been on both sides of that.

Just because you say something isn't the case doesn't make it true.

Let's look at this another way - I'm in a fleet, feel like showing off, so I take my Kronos on a mega fleet - bastion up.

Enemy fleet primaries me and it turns out that it was a bad idea to take the Kronos after all. Bastion just started a cycle, man I can't believe I'm going to lose this thing...

I KNOW! *turns off router*

Ship saved.

What if I mis-trigger a spawn in a site or mission, or realize I fit the wrong hardeners? Bastion just started a cycle, man I can't believe I'm going to lose this thing...

I KNOW! *turns off router*

Ship saved.

If you're going to fly a very expensive ship, you will have to learn to fly it smarter - or end up losing it. While DCs happen, they are fairly rare (for me at least? I'm on a decent provider I guess...). Don't fly what you can't afford to lose etc.
Janet Clover
CrashCat Corporation
#46 - 2013-10-14 16:54:18 UTC
Serge SC wrote:
Isn't the OP about the ship just being a bit too vulnerable while on Bastion?

A dread, carrier or rorqual is never alone. Should a DC happen, you can rep them and keep them up while you come back to retake control.

A marauders is being treated as a capital, while being as tanky as a battleship with less buffer. They are different ships, different roles. Ok, keep bastion cycling and then e-warp, but the ship has pityful HP to survive that DC, and no fleet supporting it. It's mostly a solo ship, forever alone.


i see your confusion, maybe you should read the description on a siege and or triage module. you CANT rep a dread, carrier or super carrier in siege/triage so if **** happens you are dead.

besides it was the OP that made the post about safe warp on DC he thinks it is fair that a marauder in bastion mode does a safe e-warp and i strongly disagree with a few people and i haven't heard a single reason that makes me reconsider.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#47 - 2013-10-14 20:12:54 UTC
Janet Clover wrote:
Serge SC wrote:
Isn't the OP about the ship just being a bit too vulnerable while on Bastion?

A dread, carrier or rorqual is never alone. Should a DC happen, you can rep them and keep them up while you come back to retake control.

A marauders is being treated as a capital, while being as tanky as a battleship with less buffer. They are different ships, different roles. Ok, keep bastion cycling and then e-warp, but the ship has pityful HP to survive that DC, and no fleet supporting it. It's mostly a solo ship, forever alone.


i see your confusion, maybe you should read the description on a siege and or triage module. you CANT rep a dread, carrier or super carrier in siege/triage so if **** happens you are dead.

besides it was the OP that made the post about safe warp on DC he thinks it is fair that a marauder in bastion mode does a safe e-warp and i strongly disagree with a few people and i haven't heard a single reason that makes me reconsider.

So you think it's totally ok that Marauders become the only subcap ship that sits in a site with all mods off & dies on a DC when NOT pointed?
Literally, the ONLY subcap ship that has this issue.
If you worry about abuses, then make it Ewarp at the end of Bastion, that's good enough. There is still a 5 minute PvE timer for you to probe them down. If you can't get them in that time, you wouldn't have probed them down before they could warp safely while connected.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#48 - 2013-10-14 20:36:08 UTC
Is the OP saying that once the 60 second Bastion mode is up it doesn't warp out? If that is what is happening, then there is definitely a problem.

If the ship has finished Bastion mode and it is not being warp disrupted/scrammed, it should warp off due to the e-warp mechanic.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#49 - 2013-10-14 20:53:10 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Is the OP saying that once the 60 second Bastion mode is up it doesn't warp out? If that is what is happening, then there is definitely a problem.

This is exactly what the OP is saying happens. The Marauder just sits there dead in space with all mods deactivated. (Since DC's also deactive all mods, so permarun active tank is irrelevant)
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#50 - 2013-10-14 21:33:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
YesYes NoNoNo wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
No. You should not be able to save a dead ship just because you pull out your network cable.

Disconnections are a fact of life, learn to live with it. A logistic in a chain disconnects, an incursion group wipes. An FC disconnects, an entire fleet can wipe. None of these deserve any more or any less protection than your solo PvEboat.

Never fly what you can't afford to lose and all that.


Except a logi in a chain disconnects, an incursion group doesn't actually wipe.
An FC disconnects, the fleet doesn't wipe.
Both of these are down to the behaviour of the remaining people on grid. And in both of these, your ship warps off grid unless pointed.
In the case of a Marauder. Because all active mods stop, you die before you can reconnect against straight NPC rats. This is not going to escape PvP, this is not going to magically get you off grid when scrammed. But, this will get you off grid when not scrammed, same as every other ratting ship.
Otherwise this will be a very expensive time consuming effort by CCP that will actually make Marauders used LESS than currently.


Except when one of 3 logis in an incursion group dc's, THEY DO WIPE. I've been there personally.

Same with when the FC discos - I've been on both sides of that.

Just because you say something isn't the case doesn't make it true.

Let's look at this another way - I'm in a fleet, feel like showing off, so I take my Kronos on a mega fleet - bastion up.

Enemy fleet primaries me and it turns out that it was a bad idea to take the Kronos after all. Bastion just started a cycle, man I can't believe I'm going to lose this thing...

I KNOW! *turns off router*

Ship saved.

What if I mis-trigger a spawn in a site or mission, or realize I fit the wrong hardeners? Bastion just started a cycle, man I can't believe I'm going to lose this thing...

I KNOW! *turns off router*

Ship saved.

If you're going to fly a very expensive ship, you will have to learn to fly it smarter - or end up losing it. While DCs happen, they are fairly rare (for me at least? I'm on a decent provider I guess...). Don't fly what you can't afford to lose etc.


And how is this different to any other subcap ship, including expensive fit pirate ships?

The fact it will never attempt an e-warp even after the Bastion module has been switched off at the end of its cycle is a problem.


Also your scenario is false, a ship isn't saved. If the fleet primaries you and you're pointed/scrammed you don't e-warp, if they haven't scrammed you, you're still in space and they've 5 minutes to probe you down and prolong your timer.

I've yet to hear a logical argument as to why this shouldn't be resolved in some form or other. No really, none.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
ArmyOfMe
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#51 - 2013-10-15 01:22:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ArmyOfMe
Joe Risalo wrote:


I'm saying this low EHP needs to be accounted for and the ships should instantly drop bastion and warp if you DC.

Yeah cause this would never be exploitedRoll

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#52 - 2013-10-15 03:50:23 UTC
buy an undersized repper and don't worry about disconnections. a pithum c-type is 114m in jita right now. hell, with +30% resist and 100% rep bonus from bastion you could probably use a small rep for most missions.

although if it did drop after a dc the enemy would at least have 5 mins to probe you down, and with a marauder it isn't all that hard.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#53 - 2013-10-15 07:11:42 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
buy an undersized repper and don't worry about disconnections. a pithum c-type is 114m in jita right now. hell, with +30% resist and 100% rep bonus from bastion you could probably use a small rep for most missions.

although if it did drop after a dc the enemy would at least have 5 mins to probe you down, and with a marauder it isn't all that hard.


I think you've missed the point on two accounts here. When the game goes into e-warp (or tries and fails) everything is shut off. So you stop repping, but the rats are still shooting you. If you crash or DC, you're screwed. You aren't repping, and soon your high resist bonus is gone, and you aren't warping away, you're still there getting shot.

If people throw a logoffski to avoid being ganked they can still be caught in space, if you probed them to find them in the first place you can probe them again, as you say, a marauder isn't hard to find.

There's no reason for the ship to remain in place, especially after all modules have been deactivated by the game, capitals with a similar feature have the EHP to survive the rats shooting them, marauders don't. Buffing the EHP is not the issue, allowing the e-warp to go off is.

The stupidity remains because people seem to have this idea in their head that e-warping means you escape and can't be touched at all, despite the fact it's no different to any other ship that pulls the same attempt and logs off, they're still somewhere else in space for 5 minutes, and you can still find them. These people have yet to make a convincing argument as to why the Marauder should be exempt from this.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Janet Clover
CrashCat Corporation
#54 - 2013-10-15 13:13:23 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Janet Clover wrote:
Serge SC wrote:
Isn't the OP about the ship just being a bit too vulnerable while on Bastion?

A dread, carrier or rorqual is never alone. Should a DC happen, you can rep them and keep them up while you come back to retake control.

A marauders is being treated as a capital, while being as tanky as a battleship with less buffer. They are different ships, different roles. Ok, keep bastion cycling and then e-warp, but the ship has pityful HP to survive that DC, and no fleet supporting it. It's mostly a solo ship, forever alone.


i see your confusion, maybe you should read the description on a siege and or triage module. you CANT rep a dread, carrier or super carrier in siege/triage so if **** happens you are dead.

besides it was the OP that made the post about safe warp on DC he thinks it is fair that a marauder in bastion mode does a safe e-warp and i strongly disagree with a few people and i haven't heard a single reason that makes me reconsider.


So you think it's totally ok that Marauders become the only subcap ship that sits in a site with all mods off & dies on a DC when NOT pointed?
Literally, the ONLY subcap ship that has this issue.
If you worry about abuses, then make it Ewarp at the end of Bastion, that's good enough. There is still a 5 minute PvE timer for you to probe them down. If you can't get them in that time, you wouldn't have probed them down before they could warp safely while connected.


if in bastion mode YES because the price you pay for the very strong effects of the bastion module is immobility. if you dont like it dont use the bastion mode. cap subcap whatever i realy dont see an issue.

i can go the same road that you are taking and yell boo its not fair that my dread or carrier doesnt e-warp when in siege or triage when i DC boohoo there is no subcap with this problem (as it is still in test) and its unfair because caps are a lot of training and they are very expensive boohoo

but you know what i dont, and i do fly carriers and am dread capable just dont have one yet, if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
Janet Clover
CrashCat Corporation
#55 - 2013-10-15 13:25:21 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
buy an undersized repper and don't worry about disconnections. a pithum c-type is 114m in jita right now. hell, with +30% resist and 100% rep bonus from bastion you could probably use a small rep for most missions.

although if it did drop after a dc the enemy would at least have 5 mins to probe you down, and with a marauder it isn't all that hard.


I think you've missed the point on two accounts here. When the game goes into e-warp (or tries and fails) everything is shut off. So you stop repping, but the rats are still shooting you. If you crash or DC, you're screwed. You aren't repping, and soon your high resist bonus is gone, and you aren't warping away, you're still there getting shot.

If people throw a logoffski to avoid being ganked they can still be caught in space, if you probed them to find them in the first place you can probe them again, as you say, a marauder isn't hard to find.

There's no reason for the ship to remain in place, especially after all modules have been deactivated by the game, capitals with a similar feature have the EHP to survive the rats shooting them, marauders don't. Buffing the EHP is not the issue, allowing the e-warp to go off is.

The stupidity remains because people seem to have this idea in their head that e-warping means you escape and can't be touched at all, despite the fact it's no different to any other ship that pulls the same attempt and logs off, they're still somewhere else in space for 5 minutes, and you can still find them. These people have yet to make a convincing argument as to why the Marauder should be exempt from this.


you miss the point FFS in bastion mode you are IMMOBILIZED what dont you understand about that? so E-warp doesn't work and that makes perfect sense. same rules as siege on a dread, triage on a carrier or super carrier and industry mode on rorqual heck even for a ship that lites a cyno.

i asked it before and i will ask it again for what reason should a marauder be treated different then the named ships ? give me 1 good reason, and its not tanky, it may die or boohoo its unfair doesn't count as a good reason.

you can say that they can still be found with a logoff trick to fake a DC but i say that they need to probe you down so in some situations you will escape from an sure death this is the reason why there should not be a E-warp when you are in bastion mode.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#56 - 2013-10-15 14:52:26 UTC
Janet Clover wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
buy an undersized repper and don't worry about disconnections. a pithum c-type is 114m in jita right now. hell, with +30% resist and 100% rep bonus from bastion you could probably use a small rep for most missions.

although if it did drop after a dc the enemy would at least have 5 mins to probe you down, and with a marauder it isn't all that hard.


I think you've missed the point on two accounts here. When the game goes into e-warp (or tries and fails) everything is shut off. So you stop repping, but the rats are still shooting you. If you crash or DC, you're screwed. You aren't repping, and soon your high resist bonus is gone, and you aren't warping away, you're still there getting shot.

If people throw a logoffski to avoid being ganked they can still be caught in space, if you probed them to find them in the first place you can probe them again, as you say, a marauder isn't hard to find.

There's no reason for the ship to remain in place, especially after all modules have been deactivated by the game, capitals with a similar feature have the EHP to survive the rats shooting them, marauders don't. Buffing the EHP is not the issue, allowing the e-warp to go off is.

The stupidity remains because people seem to have this idea in their head that e-warping means you escape and can't be touched at all, despite the fact it's no different to any other ship that pulls the same attempt and logs off, they're still somewhere else in space for 5 minutes, and you can still find them. These people have yet to make a convincing argument as to why the Marauder should be exempt from this.


you miss the point FFS in bastion mode you are IMMOBILIZED what dont you understand about that? so E-warp doesn't work and that makes perfect sense. same rules as siege on a dread, triage on a carrier or super carrier and industry mode on rorqual heck even for a ship that lites a cyno.

i asked it before and i will ask it again for what reason should a marauder be treated different then the named ships ? give me 1 good reason, and its not tanky, it may die or boohoo its unfair doesn't count as a good reason.


Because capital ships have significant EHP to survive a game crash or disconnect, a marauder that just had all its defences switched off does not. Just because you don't like this reason doesn't mean it's a bad reason, it's a perfectly logical reason, it just deflates most of your crappy argument.

Quote:
you can say that they can still be found with a logoff trick to fake a DC but i say that they need to probe you down so in some situations you will escape from an sure death this is the reason why there should not be a E-warp when you are in bastion mode.


They had to probe you down in the first place, either they probe you where you logged off in your mission/plex or they probe you to wherever you e-warp to, your point is really moot. Either way, you will at some point be probed down, where you are doesn't matter for that purpose if another player is going to catch you. This doesn't justify being left with NPCs shooting you when every other sub capital ship gets to e-warp off.

The fact is even when the game realises you've DC'd and switches everything off, it doesn't initiate an e-warp when the Bastion mode has ended. It never attempts an e-warp when you're capable of warping, but is content or you to sit there with all modules and resistance bonuses switched off being shot by rats.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Mysttina
Alpha Spectres
#57 - 2013-10-15 15:20:56 UTC
In short, the ship does not trigger e-warp on DC even when Bastion cycle has finished naturally.

I agree with OP, this is a problem
Janet Clover
CrashCat Corporation
#58 - 2013-10-15 20:30:08 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Janet Clover wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
buy an undersized repper and don't worry about disconnections. a pithum c-type is 114m in jita right now. hell, with +30% resist and 100% rep bonus from bastion you could probably use a small rep for most missions.

although if it did drop after a dc the enemy would at least have 5 mins to probe you down, and with a marauder it isn't all that hard.


I think you've missed the point on two accounts here. When the game goes into e-warp (or tries and fails) everything is shut off. So you stop repping, but the rats are still shooting you. If you crash or DC, you're screwed. You aren't repping, and soon your high resist bonus is gone, and you aren't warping away, you're still there getting shot.

If people throw a logoffski to avoid being ganked they can still be caught in space, if you probed them to find them in the first place you can probe them again, as you say, a marauder isn't hard to find.

There's no reason for the ship to remain in place, especially after all modules have been deactivated by the game, capitals with a similar feature have the EHP to survive the rats shooting them, marauders don't. Buffing the EHP is not the issue, allowing the e-warp to go off is.

The stupidity remains because people seem to have this idea in their head that e-warping means you escape and can't be touched at all, despite the fact it's no different to any other ship that pulls the same attempt and logs off, they're still somewhere else in space for 5 minutes, and you can still find them. These people have yet to make a convincing argument as to why the Marauder should be exempt from this.


you miss the point FFS in bastion mode you are IMMOBILIZED what dont you understand about that? so E-warp doesn't work and that makes perfect sense. same rules as siege on a dread, triage on a carrier or super carrier and industry mode on rorqual heck even for a ship that lites a cyno.

i asked it before and i will ask it again for what reason should a marauder be treated different then the named ships ? give me 1 good reason, and its not tanky, it may die or boohoo its unfair doesn't count as a good reason.


Because capital ships have significant EHP to survive a game crash or disconnect, a marauder that just had all its defences switched off does not. Just because you don't like this reason doesn't mean it's a bad reason, it's a perfectly logical reason, it just deflates most of your crappy argument.

Quote:
you can say that they can still be found with a logoff trick to fake a DC but i say that they need to probe you down so in some situations you will escape from an sure death this is the reason why there should not be a E-warp when you are in bastion mode.


They had to probe you down in the first place, either they probe you where you logged off in your mission/plex or they probe you to wherever you e-warp to, your point is really moot. Either way, you will at some point be probed down, where you are doesn't matter for that purpose if another player is going to catch you. This doesn't justify being left with NPCs shooting you when every other sub capital ship gets to e-warp off.

The fact is even when the game realises you've DC'd and switches everything off, it doesn't initiate an e-warp when the Bastion mode has ended. It never attempts an e-warp when you're capable of warping, but is content or you to sit there with all modules and resistance bonuses switched off being shot by rats.


no if someone is doing an anomaly you dont need probes to find him. in some cases you may need to scan him down but not always. if you allow them to safe E-warp its always needed to scan him. its not fair to make an exception.

and the ammount of EHP doesnt mean **** and is not relevant IMHO the fact that you can fake an DC to get out of bastion mode IS
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#59 - 2013-10-15 20:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
the problem is you cannot be pointed while in bastion due to ew immunity; so no, dc while in bastion should not give you a chance to escape.

i understand what some ppl are saying, that after bastion end, you should get e-warped, but the problem will be: i can wait till my bastion is almost over then "dc", and my ship will ewarp... cose it's not pointed;
there need to be a time after your ship exit bastion, so that an enemy can point you....

it's almost the same mechanic with pointing sieged dreads in low sec: you can't point them while in siege, and the second they are out of siege they jump out....
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#60 - 2013-10-15 22:03:35 UTC
Janet Clover wrote:

no if someone is doing an anomaly you dont need probes to find him. in some cases you may need to scan him down but not always. if you allow them to safe E-warp its always needed to scan him. its not fair to make an exception.

and the ammount of EHP doesnt mean **** and is not relevant IMHO the fact that you can fake an DC to get out of bastion mode IS


Right.

My non EVE playing Nephew managed to understand the problem and came to the understanding that while capital ships can survive being stuck in space with rats on a disconnect due to large amounts of EHP, a Marauder can't. Therefore it's unfair to compare the two as they are apples and oranges.

He also understands that it's the only subcap that can get stuck due to non disruptor/scram means, and that when you disconnect, all modules are switched off by the game, you have no means of boosting your survival chances beyond hoping you can log back in before the rats eat you.

He also understands that logoffski attempts does not make you invincible and that if you used this trick to avoid other players, you can still be probed down and killed, like any other sub capital.


The fact he can understand that and you can't, means you're either trolling or you're really just thick. The fact that you're dismissing things as irrelevant because they don't suit your argument means that the answer is a likely combination of both.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.