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Level 3 Blitzing: 50M+ isk in assets per hour @ 2,000 isk/LP conversion
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stoicfaux
#1 - 2013-10-15 04:30:54 UTC
Summary:
You can generate 50M+ isk/hour in assets blitzing level 3s in an Ishtar with a 2,000 ISK/LP conversion rate.

Once upon a time in GD, Skill Training Online started a... discussion about mission payouts, which boiled down to this:
Quote:

Level 1 mission... 2 million per hour.

Level 2 mission... 4 million per hour.

Level 3 mission... 8 million per hour.

Level 4 Mission... 60 million per hour

Quite the disparity, eh?

However, the reality is a bit different. You can make signficantly more income than 8 million per hour running level 3s. The factors contributing to a revised income number for level 3 are:
* blitz, blitz, blitz
* 2,000 isk/LP conversion rate
* SHORT travel distances! Even in a 4-10AU system with a 10-20AU neighboring system, I spent 44% of my time traveling and 56% of my time in the mission. Meaning, do NOT bother with a system that has planets/gates 90+AU apart.
* Apply battleship level firepower out to extreme battleship ranges.
* Be fast, nimble and fit an MWD.
* cherry pick missions, i.e. use faction standings to decline a mission more than once every 4 hours.

I flew an Ishtar (see fit at end of post) with 800 DPS, and an optimal and falloff of 93.2km + 12km. 101km optimal if you use Donre Scope Chip IIs. The Ishtar's sensor range is 100km, and there are plenty of level 3s where things spawn 100+km away. There's a medium slot left open because I only had six CPU left. Also, the Gatling Afocal Master uses less CPU than a civilian gun (used for grabbing aggro.)

Here is a googledocs spreadsheet of my test: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvCLlTV8bSxNdEVyU0VndlRMb21ieGx2b2d4eXRWeEE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

It's a relatively small sample size of 36 missions (22 unique missions) over ~2.75 hours of play time, but it makes the point abundantly clear; you can generate assets comparable to the low-end of the level 4 range (60-100M) by blitzing level 3s. The Standings tab shows the hits to both corporate and faction standings for declining missions repeatedly.

And I'm serious about the impact of travel time on efficiency. Look at the Black Market Hub and Damsels mission and look at the difference in revenue and travel times between an in-system mission (0 jumps) and a mission one system away.

[Ishtar, Level 3 armor]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
[empty med slot]
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

Drone Link Augmentor I
Auto Targeting System I
Auto Targeting System I
Gatling Afocal Maser I, Infrared S

Medium Drone Scope Chip I
Medium Drone Scope Chip I

Garde II x5
Berserker II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#2 - 2013-10-15 04:32:10 UTC
/not_posting_in_a_maybe_having_battleship_firepower_with_battleship_ranges_on_a_cruiser_hull_is_a_bad_thing_or_do_we_not_remember_the_HML_nerf?_stealth_thread

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#3 - 2013-10-15 04:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Thats a full glass cannon. Bear it in mind when trying to compare it to a tengu that had vastly more ehp, tank and general resources and could fly to the gate whilst providing full dps (something an ishtar can't do without abandoning drones or subsequently returning to them).

Note that for ratting anoms, I use 4x200mm, have 920 total dps @ 50km (light shield tank and magstab instead of the armor rep), and use the hybrids to avoid shooting frigates with the drones because of the mass overkill. drones take non trivial times to lock frigates, and then the salvo is waaaay overkill. ie if you adopted proper gunnery you can probably shave quite a bit off your mission times if they are mixed frigates and cruisers.

oh and dronescope chips are bugged - and that does need to be fixed, no doubt about it.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#4 - 2013-10-15 08:05:40 UTC
@Tauranon

Why do you want more eHP and tank?

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#5 - 2013-10-15 08:36:01 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
@Tauranon

Why do you want more eHP and tank?


I don't. The discussion point being raised is that the tengu was nerfed, and I pointed out that it had projection, damage, ehp and proper ehp/sec, which this doesn't. This has projection and damage.
BrutalButFair
Fleet of the Damned
#6 - 2013-10-15 09:48:56 UTC
How would this compare to blitzing lvl 3's in lowsec? 100m/h?
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#7 - 2013-10-15 11:36:30 UTC
BrutalButFair wrote:
How would this compare to blitzing lvl 3's in lowsec? 100m/h?


You can't solve the jumping all the time issue. if you fit a cloak you mess up your locking time and if you don't fit a cloak, no mwd-warp-trick to get away from star gates.

ie there might be a few individuals that live in quiet constellations with a lot of friends/intel, but not the playerbase as a whole.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#8 - 2013-10-15 11:59:01 UTC
Might work with the new SoE cruiser. Tweak it with warp speed rigs.

Cloaky, no locktime penalty, good drone damage, probably better warp speed compared to the Ishtar now. (with warp rigs)
You need to burn away from the warp in beacon though. And missions without gate might be a problem when using sentries. Because you can't stay alligned and probes + rigged ceptor can be on you in under 15 seconds.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#9 - 2013-10-15 13:47:25 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

* cherry pick missions, i.e. use faction standings to decline a mission more than once every 4 hours.



NEVER

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-10-15 18:35:57 UTC
What makes it more possible to do is L3 agent placements

There are still some stations with 2-3 agents from the same corp, this just doesn't happen with l4's anymore
much easier to blitz quickly when your sourcing multiple missions.
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#11 - 2013-10-15 23:23:09 UTC
Drone boats are always going to be slower that turret and missile ships for blitzing.
Also did you take into account the actual time it takes to convert the LP, ie trade LP, haul it, sell it, brokers fees, etc? I doubt you going to get your estimated LP to isk conversion even half the time.

... What next ??
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#12 - 2013-10-16 01:48:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
GordonO wrote:
Drone boats are always going to be slower that turret and missile ships for blitzing.
Also did you take into account the actual time it takes to convert the LP, ie trade LP, haul it, sell it, brokers fees, etc? I doubt you going to get your estimated LP to isk conversion even half the time.


There isn't any point putting an unsupported opinion out on the fastest L3 blitzer. The complete times are there, as is the fit. You can replicate with an ishtar pilot or you can try compete with the alternatives. I'm pretty doubtful you'll beat the aggregate time for the mission set with anything other than a 3 or 4 gun, 5 damage mod ishtar.

LP moves with a clone jump if there is an agent of any level anywhere near a hub, and buy orders for tags can be done a month ago, or in my case, a monthly trip for ammo and fetching buy order stuff will do it. its a very small overhead.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#13 - 2013-10-16 07:02:16 UTC
GordooO wrote:

Also did you take into account the actual time it takes to convert the LP, ie trade LP, haul it, sell it, brokers fees, etc? I doubt you going to get your estimated LP to isk conversion even half the time.

Antthing under 1800 - 2000 ISK/lp is **** for highsec.
It almost takes not effort to sell those items. Yes, it can take time, but that is time you don't need to sit in front of the computer ;-)

The cost for transport contracts is so low, it almost has no influence on the ISL/lp ratio.

Buy tags with buy orders, sell items with sell order. Adjust the price every 3 - 4 days, take less than 10 minutes.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#14 - 2013-10-16 07:12:13 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
GordooO wrote:

Also did you take into account the actual time it takes to convert the LP, ie trade LP, haul it, sell it, brokers fees, etc? I doubt you going to get your estimated LP to isk conversion even half the time.

Antthing under 1800 - 2000 ISK/lp is **** for highsec.
It almost takes not effort to sell those items. Yes, it can take time, but that is time you don't need to sit in front of the computer ;-)

The cost for transport contracts is so low, it almost has no influence on the ISL/lp ratio.

Buy tags with buy orders, sell items with sell order. Adjust the price every 3 - 4 days, take less than 10 minutes.


However you want to do the math. Apply the same methodology of calculations to everything though and not just one or the other. It will push L4 income into the 120M/hr range.


internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#15 - 2013-10-16 07:30:39 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
GordooO wrote:

Also did you take into account the actual time it takes to convert the LP, ie trade LP, haul it, sell it, brokers fees, etc? I doubt you going to get your estimated LP to isk conversion even half the time.

Antthing under 1800 - 2000 ISK/lp is **** for highsec.
It almost takes not effort to sell those items. Yes, it can take time, but that is time you don't need to sit in front of the computer ;-)

The cost for transport contracts is so low, it almost has no influence on the ISL/lp ratio.

Buy tags with buy orders, sell items with sell order. Adjust the price every 3 - 4 days, take less than 10 minutes.


However you want to do the math. Apply the same methodology of calculations to everything though and not just one or the other. It will push L4 income into the 120M/hr range.




Nobody is denying that, and its a well known upper figure. What is being debunked in the thread is that L3s are worth 8m/hr.
stoicfaux
#16 - 2013-10-16 14:17:13 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Thats a full glass cannon. Bear it in mind when trying to compare it to a tengu that had vastly more ehp, tank and general resources and could fly to the gate whilst providing full dps (something an ishtar can't do without abandoning drones or subsequently returning to them).

True, true. Granted this is a bit of an edge case, however, having battleship sized DPS with Rubicon Marauder+Bastion-like optimal range on a cruiser hull is probably not good game balance.

In the context of level 3s, my Ishtar cost ~300M according to pyfa. A roughly equivalent Tengu will run you ~700M, and even then can't match the range and/or DPS of my Ishtar, plus all the drama that missiles bring. I'm not 100% positive that the Tengu's ability to shoot on the run makes up for its lower DPS/range. (However, with the warp speed changes in Rubicon, a Tengu with a Gravitational Capacitor may be the way to go.)

Quote:
Note that for ratting anoms, I use 4x200mm, have 920 total dps @ 50km (light shield tank and magstab instead of the armor rep), and use the hybrids to avoid shooting frigates with the drones because of the mass overkill. drones take non trivial times to lock frigates, and then the salvo is waaaay overkill. ie if you adopted proper gunnery you can probably shave quite a bit off your mission times if they are mixed frigates and cruisers.

Interesting, but in the context of level 3s, guns would be a downgrade. CPU is super tight and a surprising number of level 3s have spawns at ~100km, to the point that I shoe-horned a Drone Link Augmentor into the fit since I found an 80km drone control range to be too limiting. If frigates get close (or something spawns on top of you) then Heavies will take care of them quickly (Ishtar's Heavy drone speed and tracking bonus plus three Omni's makes light/medium drones almost redundant.)


Quote:
oh and dronescope chips are bugged - and that does need to be fixed, no doubt about it.

I'm hoping CCP takes their time in fixing that. =)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#17 - 2013-10-16 14:39:00 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
GordooO wrote:

Also did you take into account the actual time it takes to convert the LP, ie trade LP, haul it, sell it, brokers fees, etc? I doubt you going to get your estimated LP to isk conversion even half the time.

Antthing under 1800 - 2000 ISK/lp is **** for highsec.
It almost takes not effort to sell those items. Yes, it can take time, but that is time you don't need to sit in front of the computer ;-)

The cost for transport contracts is so low, it almost has no influence on the ISL/lp ratio.

Buy tags with buy orders, sell items with sell order. Adjust the price every 3 - 4 days, take less than 10 minutes.

^^ This ^^

Also, the literalness of "isk/hour" and the contention it causes, is why I instead try to use the term "assets generated per hour."

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#18 - 2013-10-17 08:49:58 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

* cherry pick missions, i.e. use faction standings to decline a mission more than once every 4 hours.


The standings mechanics of declining missions more than once every four hours don't work quite like this.

Declining a mission drops your standing with the agent most, then the corporation and the faction least.

Then derived modification drops the faction standing of every faction that faction has positive standings towards.

So if you "use faction standings" you will eventually screw up your standings - if you do storylines to repair it you'll just end up being hated by the opposing factions.

Personal Standings Services - Free 3rd Party & Collateral Holding Service - 7+ Day Old Corps for Highsec POS Sales
stoicfaux
#19 - 2013-10-17 14:05:25 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

* cherry pick missions, i.e. use faction standings to decline a mission more than once every 4 hours.


The standings mechanics of declining missions more than once every four hours don't work quite like this.

Declining a mission drops your standing with the agent most, then the corporation and the faction least.

Then derived modification drops the faction standing of every faction that faction has positive standings towards.

So if you "use faction standings" you will eventually screw up your standings - if you do storylines to repair it you'll just end up being hated by the opposing factions.

There's a "Standings" tab in the spreadsheet that lists the impact to my corp and faction standings. Losing 0.0112% in faction standings is pretty trivial since a single War Materials storyline was a 2.0766% increase. Corp standings didn't really matter since accepted missions outweighed the declined ones.

I was averaging about 4m 48s per mission (including travel time), so 16 missions would take you ~77 minutes. Thus if you eventually do manage run down your faction standings, it shouldn't take long to repair them with the opposing faction(s).

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#20 - 2013-10-17 19:09:22 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:

So if you "use faction standings" you will eventually screw up your standings - if you do storylines to repair it you'll just end up being hated by the opposing factions.

I blized and picked a lot of level 4 missions, sometimes you need to decline 5 - 6 in a row.
The agent standing dropes fast, but as long as your faction standing is above 4 and your agent standing is above -2 you can still run them. Never had a problem.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
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