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Introduce a PvP career agent tutorial + a PvP mission mechanic

Author
Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#1 - 2013-10-14 13:54:32 UTC
I'm a carebear. Hello. It seems that there is much hatred on the forums against my kind. We are called 'risk averse' which is a nice way to call us a mean name (you know what I'm saying).

The thing is, I'm not averse to some PvP. What I am averse to are overwhelming odds and being bullied just because someone thinks it's fun to 'harvest moar tearz.' EVE is a game that I play to have fun. The problem with PvP for me is that I'm terrible at it, and getting 'ganked' doesn't teach me anything or give me any satisfaction. In fact, it does the exact opposite. Being ganked only makes me not want to log in. That's bad for EVE. I've learned way more about how to avoid PvP than I've learned how to get better at it. Right now PvP is a disruption to the activities I do for fun.

What I see as the root of the problem is that there is no actual exposure to PvP in the tutorials and any exposure to PvP in EVE at large is always against our will at the hands of players with huge SP and experience advantages. That's not fun.

Here's what I would think would be fun:

PvP Career Agent Tutorial:

  • Create a new tutorial agent for PvP
  • Have missions that teach the use of PvP modules (scram, web) and tactics (staying out of scram range, closing fast with MWD and orbiting close)
  • Teach new players why their bigger guns aren't hitting those small target (and other game mechanics)
  • Have at least 2 of the PvP tutorial missions be against another player also doing the tutorial


This last part is a little tricky. I would love to see a mechanic that pairs up players in the tutorial against each other. It's no use to give a new player a civilian warp scram and have them activate it on an NPC. It teaches us nothing other than how to click on a module in the UI.

Not only that, but I would love to see PvP missions added into NPC agents. Before some of you start pointing out that there is FW, I'd like to remind you that joining FW makes you a legal target everywhere at all times. For that reason many carebears like myself don't want to go near it. Be in a permawar with lots of players who are all better than you? No thanks. With PvP agent missions you get a chance to PvP when missions become boring which allows you to 1) get better at PvP and 2) see PvP as an enjoyable activity.

What I envision is something like this:

Level 1 PvP missions allow up to destroyers
Level 2 PvP missions allow up to cruisers
Level 3 PvP missions allow up to Battlecruisers
Level 4 PvP missions allow up to Battleships

PvP missions would be in deadspace pockets with acceleration gates that only allow up to a certain mass and ship combination. (for instance for a level 3 mission you can fit into the mission any combination of ships that is equivalent to a battlecruiser). This will encourage teamwork in the higher level missions, but still allow some players to solo PvP if they have the skills.

Anyone who leaves the mission site is unable to warp back in and if one side of the mission completely leaves the field, then they fail the mission.

Since there will obviously be one person who fails the mission, remove standings losses for these missions only.

Winners get ISK + LP as well as NPC corp standings gain.

In my mind the mechanic goes something like this:

  • High sec player goes to a PvP agent and is flagged as wanting a duel.
  • Low sec player goes to a Pirate NPC corp PvP agent and is flagged as wanting a duel.
  • Server matches up the two closest players (one pirate, one carebear) and sends an eve-mail to both with the location of a high sec deadspace 'null sec' pocket that needs 'defended' from the (invading pirate/snooping carebear)
  • Players enjoy consensual PvP and hopefully a 'good fight'


Players like myself who are bad at PvP because we don't have any way to actual learn anything against roaming HAC gangs in our T1 frigates get a chance to learn, and pirates who bemoan the lack of PvP get their fix. Eventually carebears like myself will become better at PvP and will stop fearing low sec because we'll have the skills to fight back.

TL;DR
More PvP for everyone, but not the lopsided "I'm going to kill everything in my HAC because these noobs wandered into lowsec with T1 frigates or ships that can't fight back" kind of 'PvP' that isn't fun for us carebears. Basically, duels that you don't have to sit outside a major trade hub for
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#2 - 2013-10-14 14:16:15 UTC
I like this idea

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt

Takari
Resource Warring
#3 - 2013-10-14 14:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Takari
First off: Risk-averse is not a colloquialism. In your own OP you state you would rather not log in than be 'ganked'.

Eve was built with non-consensual PvP as one of it's selling points.

It is very easy to learn PVP and how to survive in low/null sec. All it takes is time and effort on your part.

No amount of staged 1v1 or XvX pvp in a hidden deadspace area can prepare you. You would learn how to use this system well, then as soon as you hopped into low, you'd be blapped again and be even angrier than you are now.

Currently you are angry that you get killed because you don't know PVP.

If you spent all those hours "learning PVP" in this system you propose, and got killed just as easily, you'd not only be angry but crestfallen. This would break you.

If you really want to learn something about the lower security spaces and get some PVP, you join a PVP corp based out of one of those areas. Then you buy a stack of frigates that reach the sky. You start out as Hero Tackle and move up from there.

I don't want low and null sec to become "Tarren Mill" just so some PVE-centric players can build a false sense of security.

"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things. Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon

"Good luck, shoot straight and don't back down." - Serendipity Lost

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#4 - 2013-10-14 14:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
What you are asking for OP is a controlled "Arena" style PvP system... which actually teaches you nothing about PvP besides crunching numbers.

Part of PvP involves in learning how to read a dynamic and often chaotic situation that may or may not be in your favor... and then figuring out how to put more odds in your favor given the options you have.
No tutorial, no matter how comprehensive it is, will be able to scratch the surface of this.

So how did PvPers learn how to do what they do? They all hopped in frigates and died until they learned something. Yes, it's stressful and yes, you will rage and yes, some things you will learn faster than others. It's a process.

The idea is well intentioned, but it won't fix or help anything. Hell, it might give newbies unrealistic expectations with the controlled environments you proposed.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#5 - 2013-10-14 14:34:01 UTC
Quote:
The thing is, I'm not averse to some PvP. What I am averse to are overwhelming odds and being bullied just because someone thinks it's fun to 'harvest moar tearz.' EVE is a game that I play to have fun. The problem with PvP for me is that I'm terrible at it, and getting 'ganked' doesn't teach me anything or give me any satisfaction. In fact, it does the exact opposite. Being ganked only makes me not want to log in. That's bad for EVE. I've learned way more about how to avoid PvP than I've learned how to get better at it. Right now PvP is a disruption to the activities I do for fun.


It's actually pretty damn easy to avoid being ganked. If you don't learn anything from your deaths, then that indicates a problem with you and not with the game.

The idea of PVP tutorials is good. However, watering down actual PVP (ie implementing anything in this thread other than the tutorial suggestions) is not the answer.
Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#6 - 2013-10-14 14:42:19 UTC
Be better to jgive the n00b a list of people that have commited a crime recently in the constellation and send the n00b on a hunting mission. You get half the money for engaging the target. and then full payout for killing a target.
Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#7 - 2013-10-14 17:15:52 UTC
Takari wrote:
some good stuff worth replying to


I think there is a difference between 'risk averse' and not doing something I don't find enjoyable. Getting wardec'd by a dedicated PvP corp for not paying a ransom isn't fun for me when they're roaming around in battlecruisers and more than half my corp can't even fly battlecruisers (for the record, we hired mercs and the corp that wardec'd us turtled up in station and dropped war after a week... turns out those gankers didn't want to fight, they just wanted to bully newbs).

I understand that non consensual PvP is a part of EVE, and I'm not interested in changing that aspect of EVE at all. I'll admit that it's a rush when one of my corpmates calls for help in chat because they're being ransomed (lesson here is not to shoot at ninja looters)!

I want to learn how to PvP and I have made an effort (see my posts on low sec)! However, I don't want to PvP as my primary activity in EVE, so joining a PvP corp or moving to low/null sec does not appeal to me. Everyone in EVE plays the game a bit differently, and the fact that I like to shoot at red crosses and asteroids shouldn't exclude me from enjoying PvP casually.

I feel like joining a PvP corp is exactly a bunch of "1v1 or XvX pvp" that you say won't teach my anything. Yes, it's in a staged arena. An arena that I can choose to engage or disengage. The thing is, though, that I would be much more inclined to engage against an opponent I might have a chance against and if there was a reward for engaging. I'll get better the more I engage. I like getting rewards for doing missions so I can afford to buy more ships. Put the two together and I think there's something useful there.

I'm not angry that I died (to be fair, I was when I first started). I'm just disenfranchised at how PvP is set up now (i.e. no way to casually PvP and still learn and progress).

ShahFluffers wrote:
Some other stuff worth replying to


I like the way you phrased that "arena" style PvP. Personally I think that does teach you something as you still pit your ship and skills against another player. It was brought to my attention elsewhere that FW sites are used for this purpose, so I think in game there is already a play style that works around 'staged arenas' for smaller ship combat.

I agree that becoming good at PvP cannot be done in a tutorial, but it will expose brand new players to PvP. Those players now understand why they can't warp off when someone tackles them and have a basic idea of what a PvP engagement is like.

As a side note I think the arena style engagements would do a lot to teach new pilots about the capabilities of different ships and techniques. Do a whole bunch of frigate PvP missions and eventually you learn what all the different frigates are capable of. Get good at frigate combat and move on to cruisers. One of the unknown elements is that you don't know what's gonna be in the 'arena' and will have to evaluate the situation quickly and decide what tactic to use or if it's better to disengage.

See my comments above in response to joining a PvP corp.

Thank you. I do mean well and any constructive ideas are certainly welcomed!

Kahega Amielden wrote:
Not very much and was maybe telling me I'm awful... but still worth replying to


I agree that it's easy to avoid being ganked. It's easy because the only thing I learned from being ganked, is how to avoid it. I didn't learn how to PvP, I learned how to run away (or ignore baiters).

You're the second person to say that my suggestion would 'water down PvP' and also the second person to not explain why that is so I have no information to reconsider my suggestion with.

Icarus Able wrote:
Be better to jgive the n00b a list of people that have commited a crime recently in the constellation and send the n00b on a hunting mission. You get half the money for engaging the target. and then full payout for killing a target.


I like the idea of being able to have a 'hunting mission' against those who have committed crimes in the constellation! I like the idea of getting carebears involved in PvP more, and I especially like the idea of fighting back against those who would force us into non-consensual PvP or take advantage or our position of relative weakness
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2013-10-14 17:22:42 UTC
The only way to learn how to pvp is to pvp.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#9 - 2013-10-14 18:19:59 UTC
Agent Standing: 0.1

Rykki Atruin,

Just the person I needed to see. I have a job for you to do. Recently the Minmatar Militia has been getting scammed hand over fist by militia members who operate in a manner which constitutes gross dereliction of duty. They stand watch over strategic assets in poorly fit vessels, with no intention of actually defending these assets. I need for you to provide an example that will deter some of these 'farmers,' for lack of a better term. Find members of the Minmatar Militia and engage them in combat, destroying those that are unfit for duty.

Objective: Destroy Minmatar complex farmers in the low sec areas of the Metropolis Region.

Reward: 10 million isk.


Why are you still here? You haven't completed the last job I gave you.


Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2013-10-14 18:33:34 UTC

Before I critique your post, I wanted to link this Dev Blog for you:

New Player Training Sessions (focused initially towards PvP) is coming soon(tm)

Additionally, you can take classes by Agony Unleashed to learn the fundamentals of PvP:

PvP-Basic is our introductory class. Read the reviews, we've been holding these classes since 2006 and are approaching our 10,000 graduate!

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#11 - 2013-10-14 18:37:25 UTC
Quote:
I agree that it's easy to avoid being ganked. It's easy because the only thing I learned from being ganked, is how to avoid it. I didn't learn how to PvP, I learned how to run away (or ignore baiters).

You're the second person to say that my suggestion would 'water down PvP' and also the second person to not explain why that is so I have no information to reconsider my suggestion with.


Target selection and evading ganks are some of the most important PVP concepts. The actual mechanics of sitting in front of another ship and fighting them are not actually all that interesting.

Furthermore, you make the assumption that because fights will contain ships of equal class, they will be fair. That is not so. A breacher vs a TD slasher would be a laughable fight. A kiting frigate vs any frigate with an afterburner is similarly a laughable fight. Real PVP involves evaluating what your ship can kill and what it can't, and choosing fights based on that. "Good fights" happen when two or more people think they can kill the other and go for it. This does not happen when your fights are chosen for you.

Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#12 - 2013-10-14 18:49:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The only way to learn how to pvp is to pvp.


Agreed. Now we just need to find a way to introduce PvP to new players and make PvP rewarding and/or interesting to more players on a casual level.

Domanique Altares wrote:
mission briefing alluding to FW?


1) If you give me 10mil I will happily fit 10mil worth of frigates and lose them in blazes of glory! Just tell me where you'll be and give me time between fights to refit my ships based on what just happened.

2) If you were in fact alluding to forcing non-consensual PvP on other players, that's not my cup of tea and would not be enjoyable to me in any way. I understand from the forums that 'farmers' in FW tend to hide when something threatens them and I'm not interested in spending all sorts of time looking for people who don't want to fight. I want to duel, but I also want there to be a reward for doing well... give us carebears some sort of incentive to engage in PvP!

2a) See my previous post about wanting to PvP on a casual basis... Being in a permawar (factional warfare) where I am a legal target and forced to PvP every time I log in no matter where I am breaks the game for me.


Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#13 - 2013-10-14 18:57:44 UTC

Arena PvP, which is essentially the "instanced PvP" you're requesting, has many drawbacks.

Do a forum search, as arena's have been proposed many times before:
Deadspace Nullsec Arenas
Consensual PvP Arenas
Virtual Arenas
Tourney Arenas
Controlled Arenas
Lowsec Arenas
Dueling Arenas
Ship Restricted Combat Zones
Dueling Contracts
PvP Arenas
Colosseums
Simulated PvP
PvP Simulator
Null and Lowsec Arenas
Duel Mode
The Thunderdome

Here are some of the points to think about:

Arena PvP is EXTREMELY BIASED, so what is the point of it?
---Does it have a time limit? boundaries? rules?
---How do you deal with fleet boosters & bonuses?
---How do you enforce fitting limitations (number of asb's, faction/officer mods)?

Without these rules (as upheld in AT and SCL tourneys) by Referees, the games break down... terribly so.

Outside of addressing the actual arena, you need to address:
---How is this good for PvP??? (people fear it will interfere or obsolete everyday PvP!)
---Why is this needed?? Is there a problem this is correct, or is this another "wouldn't it be cool if" thread...
---Is instanced arena's the only real solution to whatever problem it is correcting??

Most people believe instanced (arena) PvP will deter people from roaming for a fight (which is true, and already somewhat problematic). Less people out, means it is harder to get fights, which means more people stop roaming, etc.

The truth is, you need to learn the basics of PvP (you can find TONs of good literature and blogs about this, check out The Altruists Know your Enemy series, check out EvE-Uni's wiki, check out Agony's Wiki, etc).

Really, the basics can be brought up in a tutorial (and I think the new "seminars" from CCP will help with that), but the actual PvP'ing experience should be learned while out roaming for a fight.

I understand this is hard to do "Part time" like you want, but it should become much easier in Rubicon (as you can go out fighting in a combat inty and be pretty hard to catch since they'll be nullified!).

Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#14 - 2013-10-14 19:13:19 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Before I critique your post, I wanted to link this Dev Blog for you:

New Player Training Sessions (focused initially towards PvP) is coming soon(tm)

Additionally, you can take classes by Agony Unleashed to learn the fundamentals of PvP:

PvP-Basic is our introductory class. Read the reviews, we've been holding these classes since 2006 and are approaching our 10,000 graduate!



Yes! That's a start! I would love to see something like the new player training sessions available to all players regardless of when they log in (such as in a tutorial?)

I didn't know about Agony Unleashed's classes... expect my attendance (and as many of my corpmates as I can drag along)!


Kahega Amielden wrote:
Some good stuff


I agree that evading ganks is important, and we (carebears) begin to learn those skills very early on (much to the frustration of all those PvPers who complain about everyone who fits warp core stabs). Target selection is something we need to learn, and we won't learn it unless we engage and make mistakes. We won't engage if there is no incentive to engage.

I'm not assuming they will be fair. In fact, I'm assuming that I will be terrible in the beginning until I learn better tactics (who to engage and how to engage). I'm assuming that my experience in these PvP missions will help guide me in what skills to train to be more effective. I'm assuming that as I continue to engage in these missions that I will become better at PvP and actually make progress.

I'll go ahead and display my ignorance here and agree that I don't know why a Breacher vs a TD Slasher (what's TD stand for in this case?) would be a bad match up.... but you know what? After a mission where those two ships are involved, I'd learn. I'd be willing to engage as well. Why? Because I know you can't warp in HACs to kill me the second it goes bad. Sure, I'd be naive to think I could win in the first place, but the next time I see the same opponent I'd be better prepared to make a sound tactical decision. Not only do 'good fights' happen when two or more people think they can win, but 'fights' happen when two or more players decide to engage!

Fights are not chosen for you... blind duels are accepted. It will be up to the players involved to decide if they want to engage, and it is up to some sort of game mechanic to reward carebears for engaging.
Takari
Resource Warring
#15 - 2013-10-14 19:16:25 UTC
I do agree that some basic PVP-centric agent missions given with NPCs that can warp scram, web, etc (Mission beacons that land in bubbles) be given, and Civilian versions of these same modules be handed out for these missions.

It won't be PVP, but an introduction to these mechanics would be good.

Still, though, I will happily contract you some free PVP tackle-frigates if you'll take the experience and do the same for your corp-mates.

Send me a mail in-game and we can work out the details.

"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things. Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon

"Good luck, shoot straight and don't back down." - Serendipity Lost

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#16 - 2013-10-14 19:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Rykki Atruin wrote:

1) If you give me 10mil I will happily fit 10mil worth of frigates and lose them in blazes of glory! Just tell me where you'll be and give me time between fights to refit my ships based on what just happened.

2) If you were in fact alluding to forcing non-consensual PvP on other players, that's not my cup of tea and would not be enjoyable to me in any way. I understand from the forums that 'farmers' in FW tend to hide when something threatens them and I'm not interested in spending all sorts of time looking for people who don't want to fight. I want to duel, but I also want there to be a reward for doing well... give us carebears some sort of incentive to engage in PvP!

2a) See my previous post about wanting to PvP on a casual basis... Being in a permawar (factional warfare) where I am a legal target and forced to PvP every time I log in no matter where I am breaks the game for me.


a.) You can make 10m in an hour, even if you are a very new player. Getting into frigate PvP has a very low entry barrier.

b.) Go to 6-CZ49 in Syndicate on the Sisi test server and ask for 1v1's there. Everything costs 100 isk, and there are usually tons of people online there to learn your PvP fits in a risk free manner.

c.) Find my corp (3KNK-A) in Syndicate and ask in local for 1v1's.... we'll honor them (and if any of my members don't I'll reimburse your ships and bitchslap that member). There is an alright local market to buy ships there too. Realize, both sides must agree to the 1v1 prior to fighting for it to be a 1v1.

d.) What is consensual PvP? Most people only engage if they think they can win. But everyone knows that when flying about in lowsec or nullsec or w-space (and even highsec if your smart), people can and will attack and destroy you if you give them the opportunity. Simply by flying in these zones you ARE consenting to getting PvP'ed, even if fit to avoid it.

e.) If you want honorable duels, you can find it in most trade hubs just by asking in local. However, like everywhere else, people can "cheat" by using fleet boosters and alts to win. One of the fundamental principles of PvP in EvE is that you are risking your ship, and your opponents will often use everything at their disposal to gain an advantage over you. The biggest learning curve for new PvP'ers is learning WHAT, WHEN, and HOW to engage. You don't learn that with your "arena" style PvP.

f.) You don't need an isk reward to PvP. Your reward is killmails and loot off your enemy's ships. Your reward is the adrenaline rush of the fight. Your reward is the knowing you defeated your opponent. If you need more than this, you don't get PvP. And FYI, winning a fight can be defined in many ways, and losing your ship doesn't mean you lost the fight.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#17 - 2013-10-14 19:27:06 UTC
Quote:
I'm not assuming they will be fair. In fact, I'm assuming that I will be terrible in the beginning until I learn better tactics (who to engage and how to engage). I'm assuming that my experience in these PvP missions will help guide me in what skills to train to be more effective. I'm assuming that as I continue to engage in these missions that I will become better at PvP and actually make progress.


How is this in any way different than current mechanics? You die, learn from it, and hopefully do not repeat the mistake.

What does the addition of arbitrary restrictive mission mechanics do to help this, other than teach people that 'real' PVP is a vacuum where you will only ever have to deal with one other person of the same ship class?


Quote:
I'll go ahead and display my ignorance here and agree that I don't know why a Breacher vs a TD Slasher (what's TD stand for in this case?) would be a bad match up.... but you know what? After a mission where those two ships are involved, I'd learn. I'd be willing to engage as well. Why? Because I know you can't warp in HACs to kill me the second it goes bad. Sure, I'd be naive to think I could win in the first place, but the next time I see the same opponent I'd be better prepared to make a sound tactical decision. Not only do 'good fights' happen when two or more people think they can win, but 'fights' happen when two or more players decide to engage!

If you die because you get tackled and someone brings in backup, then that's still something to learn. The mistake you're making is that blobbing is not valid PVP and that there are no steps you can take to avoid it. There are, and the fact that your idea seeks to eliminate that is a problem.

Furthermore, some of the most fun and interesting PVP is asymmetrical. Just because the enemy has more guys than you doesn't mean you can't kill something squishy and get out, or bring a more powerful ship to engage their superior numbers.

Quote:
Fights are not chosen for you... blind duels are accepted. It will be up to the players involved to decide if they want to engage, and it is up to some sort of game mechanic to reward carebears for engaging.


So...I get this "PVP mission", I fly out, find out that the guy coming for me is not in something I can reasonably take out and then...what? I warp out, trek all the way back to my mission station, close the mission and get a new one?

Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#18 - 2013-10-14 20:32:37 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
A lot of good information that I hadn't thought about before


1) While forming the idea for this post I wasn't thinking about 'Arena PvP' and didn't search for that topic... I would have learned a bit if I had. I can't read all those linked threads right now, but I will take a look at them as time permits.

2) You bring up some good points!

  • PvP missions would have a time limit just as any mission does. Failure to arrive at the mission area will have negative impact on your standings with that agent and corp.
  • Warping out of the mission area constitutes a failure to win the engagement, but a grants mission completion. You are not given a reward. You are not allowed to accept a higher level PvP mission until you have won a PvP engagement for the current level.
  • I hadn't considered fleet boosts... More thought is needed on this point (and probably more SP in that category for myself and my corp?)
  • I see no reason to limit fitting options. Risk high value items. Learn what items are worth fitting considering the price/gain. Perhaps limit the ship hulls for some missions (i.e. no T2 or Pirate Hulls) based on player stats? For instance a new player doing their very first PvP mission won't be facing a Dramiel, however a player with loads of kills very well may be.
  • I feel that rewarding PvP and putting carebears in a situation the encourages them to engage will bring more players into PvP in general. A bigger pool of players willing to engage leads to more PvP engagements for everyone.
  • I'd need a clearer definition of 'every day PvP' to really address how it might interfere with that. Currently I see 'every day PvP' as gankers and baiters preying on weak players (which I'm sure is biased and skewing my attitude towards PvP).
  • The problem (as I see it from the carebear side who reads forums) is that in some areas PvP is hard to come by, and most definitely there are a lot of players (in high sec) who avoid PvP all toghether. Hopefully we can find a way to encourage (not force) those players to engage in PvP and see it as an enjoyable and rewarding activity.
  • I don't think that PvP missions is the only solution to this problem. I hope this thread can be part of an idea that leads to encouraging and rewarding players like myself to engage in PvP.
  • I had not considered the possibility that this would decrease the opportunity for PvP in other areas of play. I am open to ideas that encourage players to casually PvP and reward them for doing so while also preserving other aspects of gameplay.


I agree that there are good resources for PvP (I've been reading the altruist blog and I just learned about Agony Unleashed). However, all the reading in the world does not translate to in game experience.

TL;DR

I think it all boils down to two points.
1) How do we expose new players to PvP in a way that makes sense to them and teaches them something useful (tutorials?)
2) How do we encourage (not force) high sec carebears to engage in PvP and reward them for engaging (missions)?
Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#19 - 2013-10-14 21:09:18 UTC
Takari wrote:
Some stuff about expanding the current tutorials and an offer I'll probably take him up on


I feel like learning about PvP by using civilian modules on NPC rats is a lot like learning about sex ed from a slideshow in homeroom... not anything like what's really going to happen and in no way prepares you for the main event.

I will happily lose all of those frigates in honorable duels. Name the high sec system (except in Amarr space... they don't like me there)

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Some more good points! (who are you and what are you doing on the EVE-O forums)


1) I am a carebear. My mindset is not "can I make is just to blow it up in PvP" and thus earning ISK for the sole purpose of blowing it up confuses me. However, blowing up a ship that was obtained for the sole purpose of honorable 1v1 duels intrigues me.

2) I've heard about the test server, but never used it. Perhaps I should look into that as well (remember, I'm not only a carebear, but a new player who has much to learn.

3) It is my understanding that Syndicate is null sec, and my impression is that just getting there is dangerous (especially as I am not 'blue' to any null sec entities that I'm aware of). Again, I'm a carebear and need some coaxing to come out of my den of hibernation... Although personally I am very interested in your offer and may very well take you up on it.

4) I would consider 'Consensual PvP' as an engagement between players that was wanted by all players involved. I concur that flying in wormhole/null/lowsec implies that PvP can happen at any moment (consensual or non-consensual). I would also agree that high sec is no exception. I do not agree that flying in these zones stipulates consent, but rather acknowledges threat.

5) Perhaps you do not need a reward for PvP as killmails are your reward. I, however, am a carebear and my killboard stats mean nothing to me. The loot is something I would like to have, but until I have PvP skills it is something I cannot obtain. A reward I would want is needed to entice me to engage. I agree that the adrenaline rush is enjoyable, however it is not (in my mind) a reward.

Kahega Amielden wrote:
Some constructive criticism of my previous responses


1) Current mechanics have only taught me how to avoid PvP and do not reward my engagement with other players in any way meaningful to me. I consider "Real PvP" (a term I did not use until just now in response to you) as any PvP. I'm simply suggesting a means to encourage players uninterested in the current mechanics to engage in PvP.

2) I agree that that your scenario presents a valid lesson to be learned. You are attributing a "mistake" to me that I did not make. At no point did I question the validity of specific PvP tactics. I have no intention of eliminating any form of PvP currently in game. My suggestion is to find a form of PvP that I would be encouraged to engage in and be rewarded for engaging in. I see no reason why asymmetrical PvP could not continue in game if my suggestion were implemented.

3) That is the general idea. The player(s) who did not warp out are rewarded for being able to intimidate the other player(s) while the party who decided to leave forfeits any reward. The idea is to encourage PvP. If there were standings loss for not engaging I would never even talk to the agent. If I was rewarded for flying out there and attempting to engage, I'd be more willing to risk my ship and might take a fight (even if it's because I didn't know how badly it would end for me). There probably needs to be more thought put into the mechanics on my part in regards to this.
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#20 - 2013-10-14 21:12:22 UTC
Honestly;

Everything in your proposal is taken care of by joining a player corp and asking someone in corp to practice with you. I think that's the actual point behind letting player run corp members shoot each other.

Why reinvent the wheel?
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