Ships & Modules

I'm training for Paladin right now (if anything, I'll just use those Amarr BS V and AWU V as stepping stones into Bhaal and dreads respectively, depending on how my EVE life will go on from that point) and I'm making attempts at figuring out fits I can use with it.

Basically, Paladin don't have awesome tracking of NM, but with missions I get I have to use Gammas and the like from time to time, so I guess that it's a decent tradeoff. Bastioned fits will be able to tank enough while still allowing for 1 TE and 2 TCs (that's what I use atm), or even 3 TCs if you have Long Range Targeting V and are confident that your IRL skills at using MJDs won't position you outside of locking range and therefore you'll be able to drop SB (quite honestly, 113 km at LRT5 is a lot and with 1 min MJD CD you shouldn't really worry about it). It's up to you what helps you more though: better locking time, backup AB or 3rd TC...

Also I feel quite confident without cap mods or rigs, so more slots to play with.

Speaking of tank in bastion mode, it's about 600 DPS with T2 rep and T2 EANM. I think it's enough. Bonus points for it being pretty much omnitank, so no fiddling with hardeners for BR/Sansha, drones and mercs anymore (a couple of seconds saved every mission?).

Paladin's mobility will depend on MJD usage. In about 1:20 you can get anywhere (counting in MJD CD, and some leeway) within 200 km (normally you have to go about 60 km, so there's no real improvement over ships that can run MWD; although I wasn't the guy who used MWD NM normally due to cap issues), but you will lose quite a bit of time if you miss. There is an issue that Paladin fit that has nearly maxed out DPS and projection (thinking 4 sinks and 3-4 slots worth of tracking stuff, maybe 1 rig aswell) require bastion in order not to go pop (it's quite paper and at very least may require intensive cap usage without it), and that means you should manage it so that you don't stuck in it while mission is completed already or it's time to jump. Normally you'll be fine with disabling bastion when there is no more heavy DPS on 60 km orbit left, so that shouldn't be an issue most of the time. Although even if you lose a few seconds waiting for bastion cycle to end, warp speed changes will make this loss less substantial (NM and other battleships will do less missions per hour because of that, so a dozen of seconds of loss or so will worth less when you compare new longer completion times).

Paladin's advantages you don't have to make real tradeoffs to use them here are probably:
- Blockade and similar missions will be less of a PITA now as long as bastion EWAR imuunity will stop rats from TDing you (it's CCP, c'mon). You can maybe even save some time because you don't have to use sniping ammunition anymore, thus do more DPS (to elaborate: i was using sniping setup to outrange TDs).
- looting a few BS wrecks without wasting additional time for that is more realistic with 10 max targets and 48 km tractor beam; can earn you a bit of bonus coin.

In some missions (like Dread Pirate Scarlett), well, I don't see Paladin doing better than NM. In fact, I think that it'll be blown away by MWD NM, while Paladin isn't too good at imitating that fit due to mass/speed issues and armor tank (issues normally alleviated by MJD/bastion).

Speaking of missions I normally did, I don't think there will be huge advantage from jumping into Paladin. But if you was going to train racial BS and AWU to 5 for some reason anyways, why don't give it a whirl, especially if it looks sexier than NM to your taste?

I'd appreciate feedback from missioning experts as I'm not top-notch one.

I was hoping for Daniel to post in this thread
I would like to recieve opinion on a few points.



I was looking into MJD quite hard because most people seem to be very concerned about mobility in missions, like ones that require you to motorboat to acceleration gates and such, and if you rely on bastion for tanking stuff, discrete movement of MJD is what I thought to be the answer, at least in theory. In cases when you don't even need to move really and rats are far, Paladin's optimal bonus is indeed better.
The reason I'm concerned about tracking (and it's also relevant to previous point) is because I'm getting a lot of missions that outright drop me into rats, so I was using 2x scripted TCs and some manual piloting even with Nightmare. Guess that "move to proper missioning hub and handpick missions" is a proper answer to this issue though Perhaps with addition of some cheaper ships for specific missions...

Anyways, I'm not quite sure what should I put in 4th mid anyways (and that takes us to the next point), so given Paladin's range projection, MJD can actually fix that issue without causing DPS loss really.


Here lies my issue with missioning, I can't think of ways to reach those numbers. While achieving 1100 DPS with MF is trivial (bling, skills, implants, 5 damage mods), making tach's optimals reach lock range (~115 km) is kinda troublesome. What am I missing in those applied DPS calculations, sentries? That said, you don't normally need to project out to that range, and 75+ km is not a problem.


On that I agree, if you count bastion as one of those slots, I don't see a lot of reasons to go with more than that in missions where you can use this mod.

I was using test build of EFT to get the numbers, and indeed, as it was said, 73 km with MF is pretty easy to get with a fit that I think is pretty well-rounded (ok, by that I mean going all out with projection since there's not much more to fit, everything else is there already).
The thing with bastion projection bonus is that it appears that bastion is a subject to stacking penalties in this department. It seems that this estimation was taken from one of the first dev posts from marauder rebalancing thread in F&I section where numbers suggesting that were provided. It seems that it wasn't denied just yet (and if it will be, all the better, after all).

To the rest of your post, yes, most missions I had in mind aren't terribly good in terms of ISK/time, mostly average. For mission hubs with numerous agents I take it most people avoid them when possible. I was just thinking of ways to do them if you have to, for one reason or another.


I was mostly talking about cases when NPCs can set orbits quite fast, and cause some DPS drop, not that NM couldn't hit most of orbiting rats (not counting frigs ofc). My concern was mostly about said DPS drop rather than about you becoming vulnerable (NM could assist its guns by maneuvering, Paladin will be probably set into bastion if surrounding rats have enough DPS, that's something to think about too, I believe), and how well optimal range bonus will counteract that in terms of completion times assuming that you don't only get missions where range is clearly superior (some of those missions also happen to have TD, so...).
That said, 31 km optimal for Gleam with bastion and single TE (assuming all TCs are set for tracking) is nice, just in case.

Bastion is a tricky thing tbh. Combination of tank (read: freed slots) and projection bonus kinda allows to better project damage, but I feel it's not really huge improvements for many ships that are considered best mission boats at the moment. What I like in it is that it makes Paladin (an armor ship) work and competitive with other ships (normally shield gank fits that still have slots for projection/application mods). I see it as a good thing because its optimal bonus looks helpful and may be an improvement.
What also helps is EWar immunity, will definitely speed up some missions.


Still an improvement though, if not in terms of being annoying to fiddle with. Guess Golem pilots will love it better than Golem changes themselves

Another thing that concerns me though is a possibility that CCP will decide to go back to their "marauders/bastion idea v2.0". Won't be a terrible blow, but not an improvement either. I'm afraid that this entirely depends on whether XLASB+bastion fits will prove themselves to be broken enough or not, while such change will mostly hurt armor fits

Paladin:


4x Mega pulse laser II
Bastion

3x Tracking computer II / optimal range
Utility mid

4x IN Heat Sink
Tracking enhancer II
Damage control II
Large ancillary armor repairer /paste (this reduces cap use of repair)

Burst aerator II
Metastasis rig I


Without implants:
Conflagration 1228dps @ 37+25km (30+21km out of bastion)
IN Gamma L: 1005dps @ 49+25km (orbit range battleship killer, compare to tachyon 1057dps)
Scorch L: 875dps @ 90km out of bastion

The above are the implantless stats for standard comparison. However, to use the fit properly and make the most out of it, you want to have at least a +5 set. This fit requires knowledge of how to optimize the missions and force optimal shooting range with the combination of crystal pick, bastion timing, utility mid selection and triggers (for killing stuff with conflag before it moves out of the 37km optimal or gains speed to put the tracking penalties into place).

As a curiosity, with +5% implants you are doing 1350dps to 37+25km with capstable guns. This is really what makes the fit scale better than tachyon fit which is in itself very impressive (1057dps to pretty much any mission range without implants, 1150 with implants). The pulse fit also has less in built capacitor issues; all of that sort can be forgotten by fitting a CCC instead of the metastasis rig though.

In short, bastioned pulse fit gains ~200dps to 30-40km close kills but loses ~100dps to over 55km kills. The dps is very much the same at 40-55km ranges. The definite improvement is in nullsec anom bashing where pulse fit will rock, missions require testing to see whether the high paper dps advantage can be put into use in practise. I'll be play testing the pulse pally for sure to see how to best negate the tracking penalties from conflag.

@The Spod: the numbers are interesting to be sure. can you give me the tracking numbers for tachs with inmf vs pulses with conflag? i'm too lazy to check myself.

With Daniels and my nightmare both currently employing a 5 slot shield tank (with no tanking bonus's from the hulI) can see the paladin actually being able to get away with MWD and a 3 slot shield tank for missioning duties. Now that would be a thing of beauty.

Paladin (current version for Rubicon) looks to be the best lvl4 ship for EM/THERM rats (ofc Pulse fit). That's because of 3 things:

1. Looots of cap, easily be able to be cap stable with lots of different useful mods
2. FU tracking disruptors thanks to ewar immu
3. Salvaging mission on the go


4x Heat Sinks, MJD, AB, 2xTC... everything this with cap stable fit and not too shiny fit, and really high DPS especially on conflags

It's the only not bad rebalanced marauder, and that's because of hull changes not bastion...

Ah i had forgotten about the TE nerf, probably since i don't use them on my nightmare, or anything else really.

Point duly noted.

my feeling is that after all is said and done, tachs are still better suited for the job. with pulses, you have to settle on 800ish dps for anything outside ~35km, whereas tachs will get you your guaranteed 1100 across 90% of missions. I'll have to see how tracking feels with gleam and TC script switcheroo.

also, someone less lazy than me could take a look at how the diggerence in damage composition between scorch and INMF affects real applied dps against the most common mission targets (sansha/BR battleships, mercenaries, EoM etc.).