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Putting the 'P' Back in PvP
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#21 - 2013-10-13 03:10:32 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
The problem lies with the extremes in player habits. And it's a no-win situation unless you are willing to incur the wrath of a portion of the playerbase.

At some point if EVE wants to truly evolve and open itself up to a larger player base, a little revolution is in order.

There is no true order in entropy. Twisted

How did you Veterans start?
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#22 - 2013-10-13 14:48:19 UTC
OP do you even PVP?
Liesje Allister
Doomheim
#23 - 2013-10-13 15:33:20 UTC
Some people don't care about PvP.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#24 - 2013-10-13 16:19:06 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:
OP do you even PVP?


I was wonder this same thing!


OP: If you take away warp disruption, you essentially reduce all combat to "gank" tactics in said situation. In general, a solo or small gang can't possibly bring down even a cruiser sized target before it warps. In order for combat to be effective in this new area, you would need gangs that can moreless alpha ships off field. This implies more 1 vs Many situations, less small-engageable gang PvP, and little solo PvP within your zone. That's not the type of PvP I personally want to promote, so I hope to God CCP doesn't implement this idea!

Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-10-14 06:32:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Sean Parisi wrote:
OP do you even PVP?


I was wonder this same thing!


OP: If you take away warp disruption, you essentially reduce all combat to "gank" tactics in said situation. In general, a solo or small gang can't possibly bring down even a cruiser sized target before it warps. In order for combat to be effective in this new area, you would need gangs that can moreless alpha ships off field. This implies more 1 vs Many situations, less small-engageable gang PvP, and little solo PvP within your zone. That's not the type of PvP I personally want to promote, so I hope to God CCP doesn't implement this idea!




I think he has in mind to boost tier 3 bc gank squads, they don't have to be large. thing is even a 6 man has bare minimum isk dropped needs to make it worth it. 6 X what average cost of fit is. With cheap mission runners like me, they make no isk. Over time I have ripped off alot of bling or went for the cheaper bling options (b or even c type gear works for me...i'd rather have the isk for a type in the wallet if not actually needed).

No concord might make these work. Wouldn't have the space poilce at any rate if it failed.



Also not seeing the low sec boost from this. I currently run pretty much most of the time in .7/.8 systems. All this does is move people to where I am, not low sec.


And low sec for the 100th time is a victim of its own success. Most in time learn to read the map and set if for ships and pods lost in past hour. Gee, why is no one coming our way after a good run for a bit? Could it be your low sec system is now showing more brightly than any other system in a several system radius? Nah..... People actually do hit low sec, they jsut when they get smarter use map skills to take quiet(er) routes in. Some players oddly enough don't equate dying like a muppet in a very well placed and run gate camp as pvp. Can't blame them...why be fish in a barrel if you don't have to be.


If low sec wants fights they are not hard to find. They can always go to the pirated dens. Granted in the pirate dens chance of opponent being able to fight generally increases....but a gf is what you wanted in the first place, right? Tama will get you that most times.


Or they could jsut read pirate corp kb's. Hit up the tuskers kb, see they jsut bagged a few kills 10 systems over in the past hour. Go and find them there, sure they will would be happy to play with you.
Aesheera
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-10-14 09:57:00 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
There's a reason most players don't venture into low-sec.

• BAN the use of warp disruptors and scramblers in High-sec space.

Banning tackle in highsec - why?
How will wars be fought? How will you pin someone?
That will only increase the ganks, Tornado sales will go through the roof, wardecs will effectively become useless since alpha fleets will be the way forward in order to kill someone.
In short, bad idea.
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Yes, CONCORD will now POD you.

Concord podding? Concord punishes, they dont murder you.
Let players take care of that.
In short, bad idea.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Addenum: If you don't like the idea, fine - take your petty comments elsewhere. If you think there's some merit in the concept but disagree with some aspects/implementation and have constructive suggestions, I'm all ears.

It's hard to be constructive when you tell people to take their petty comments elsewhere.
it's also hard when your idea's are simply silly.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#27 - 2013-10-14 12:11:00 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
There's a reason most players don't venture into low-sec. It's not because of local, it's not because of AFK cloakers - it's not even because of the roving gangs and gate camps. It's because nearly every ship is outfitted with a warp disruptor or scrambler. This is why we can't have nice things, or at least venture outside of high-sec with them. But low-sec is a mixed bag of snakes, and it's kind of an introduction to null-sec - so we're not going to touch on that today.

Instead, this is the main proposal I'm putting forward:
• BAN the use of warp disruptors and scramblers in High-sec space.
• Eliminate CONCORD from 0.5 and 0.6 systems (this is where all the really profitable high-sec mission and mining happens anyway).
• A new "black flag" timer (pirate) that lasts 24 hours for any non-suspect/criminal/pirate ship kills in high-sec (0.5-1.0). Pirate flags would function somewhat differently than criminal flags in that gate guns, station guns and CONCORD (where applicable) would fire on you (in or out of a pod). Yes, CONCORD will now POD you.

While this will translate into fewer ganks in high-sec (oh, perish the thought!), there will be a lot more PvP combat and engagements in 0.5-0.6 systems And just because you're not warp jammed isn't any guarantee that you're going to be able to successfully extricate yourself, either. It also means that if you want to make an a** of yourself in high-sec by ganking or preying on unsuspecting players, you're more than welcome to do so. Just expect to be leaving sans pod or making alternate travel arrangements if you decide to ***** in on the killmail.

0.5-0.6 missions and mining will potentially be less profitable if there's an inherent risk of having to choose between your ship and your valuable cargo or salvage. As it should be. AFK miners and bots can continue to plague high-sec, they'll just have to limit themselves to 0.7-1.0 systems for any assurance of safety.
.....

Addenum: If you don't like the idea, fine - take your petty comments elsewhere. If you think there's some merit in the concept but disagree with some aspects/implementation and have constructive suggestions, I'm all ears.

sure, ban points from highsec, because how usefull they are when you engage someone suspect / with a killright available / at war with you......

grow a pair and l2eve

the only change that would be great to points, imao, would be that they prevent you from docking / activating a gate, this would increase pvp
Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#28 - 2013-10-14 13:06:13 UTC
Do you want to know why we don't go to low sec?

Because no one there wants a 'good fight.' I organized a frigate fleet to introduce some of our newbs to PvP. We knew we would lose our ships. It was actually our goal. No one in fleet was allowed to return to high sec in the frigate they brought. We announced in local that we were noobs and wouldn't leave until we had seen some action. Our fleet comp was known to the locals (and commented on). Guess who showed up to fight us? A group of HACs. Seriously. A group of HACs showed up to fight three newbs in t1 frigates.

Was it fun for those who live in low sec to welp on T1 frigs in HACs? It wasn't fun for us to die before we even got into range to shoot at anyone.

We came back in cruisers and no one engaged us. Seriously. I sat 25km off station in my T1 cruiser and *no one* engaged. Much to my dismay I left back to high sec in my cruiser.

I get that everyone likes to win, but no one likes to lose *all the time no matter what they bring!* If someone (with obviously more SP and T2 guns) had come out to engage us in a T1 frigate we *all* would have had more fun (and 99% chance they would have won)... but that's not what happened.

TL;DR
No one goes to low sec because no one in low sec is willing to have actual 'good fights' and engage new players to PvP in a way that makes it fun for the new player (i.e. bringing HACs out to fight T1 frigates)

Semi-nomadic corp seeking new and veteran players
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#29 - 2013-10-14 13:45:35 UTC
OP I'm afraid all your proposal will do is condense HiSecs population in 0.7 and above systems, turn 0.5 and 0.6 systems into wastelands of no real use to anyone and as to letting NPC's pod players in what way, shape or form is that ever a good idea?


NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2013-10-14 13:47:09 UTC
I've seen lots of suggestions to ban certain mods in certain areas of the game, and it seems that none of the suggestions are ever implemented and I fail to see how such a ban would promote sandboxy game play.

Certain areas of EVE are borked, but banning a mod here and/or a ship type there ain't gonna fix 'em...

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#31 - 2013-10-14 13:50:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Rykki Atruin wrote:
We announced in local that we were noobs and wouldn't leave until we had seen some action. Our fleet comp was known to the locals (and commented on). Guess who showed up to fight us? A group of HACs. Seriously. A group of HACs showed up to fight three newbs in t1 frigates.



Come in FW low-sec, enter a plex and use it as filter for ship-type; also, you can see who is entering, so if somoene is bringing unreasonable numbers you have plenty of time to decide if accepting the engagment or warp away.

But if some stranger come in local yelling "we're a group of noobs in frigate wanting to figth, warp at planet 3" maybe people think is some kind of trap; and bring HACs, just in case :)


Also consider the "tourist factor": it's like a group of tourists venturing for some thrill in the Bronx or similar and yelling to the residents "Warriors, come out to play-i-ay"
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#32 - 2013-10-14 13:56:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
Rykki Atruin wrote:
Do you want to know why we don't go to low sec?

Because no one there wants a 'good fight.' I organized a frigate fleet to introduce some of our newbs to PvP. We knew we would lose our ships. It was actually our goal. No one in fleet was allowed to return to high sec in the frigate they brought. We announced in local that we were noobs and wouldn't leave until we had seen some action. Our fleet comp was known to the locals (and commented on). Guess who showed up to fight us? A group of HACs. Seriously. A group of HACs showed up to fight three newbs in t1 frigates.

Was it fun for those who live in low sec to welp on T1 frigs in HACs? It wasn't fun for us to die before we even got into range to shoot at anyone.

We came back in cruisers and no one engaged us. Seriously. I sat 25km off station in my T1 cruiser and *no one* engaged. Much to my dismay I left back to high sec in my cruiser.

I get that everyone likes to win, but no one likes to lose *all the time no matter what they bring!* If someone (with obviously more SP and T2 guns) had come out to engage us in a T1 frigate we *all* would have had more fun (and 99% chance they would have won)... but that's not what happened.

TL;DR
No one goes to low sec because no one in low sec is willing to have actual 'good fights' and engage new players to PvP in a way that makes it fun for the new player (i.e. bringing HACs out to fight T1 frigates)


Did it occur to you that this group of HAC's may well have had nothing to do with the locals and was either on the way out or on the way back from a roam and you just happened to be targets of opportunity on the route?

As to sitting 25km off a station and waiting to be engaged all I've got to say is that acting like obvious bait and expecting someone to engage you solo with station guns against them as well as the possibility that you have friendlies waiting to join the fun isn't going to happen.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-10-14 14:37:49 UTC
PvP stands for Player vs People

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Tilly Delnero
Doomheim
#34 - 2013-10-14 15:48:53 UTC
Posting in another 'Let's nerf highsec in an attempt to buff lowsec but not really because I have no original ideas but really let's annoy those ebil carebears because they're all obviously BOTS trololol' thread.

Where did I put my popcorn?
Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#35 - 2013-10-14 15:50:29 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Come in FW low-sec, enter a plex and use it as filter for ship-type; also, you can see who is entering, so if somoene is bringing unreasonable numbers you have plenty of time to decide if accepting the engagment or warp away.

But if some stranger come in local yelling "we're a group of noobs in frigate wanting to figth, warp at planet 3" maybe people think is some kind of trap; and bring HACs, just in case :)


Also consider the "tourist factor": it's like a group of tourists venturing for some thrill in the Bronx or similar and yelling to the residents "Warriors, come out to play-i-ay"


Do you need to be in FW to use FW complexes? Also, I have no experience in FW low sec and no idea about the game mechanics there...

*decides to read up on FW*

I also hadn't though about the 'tourist' factor, but with as much complaining I see on the forums about lack of targets I would imagine anyone new coming into low sec would be appreciated.

Samillian wrote:
Did it occur to you that this group of HAC's may well have had nothing to do with the locals and was either on the way out or on the way back from a roam and you just happened to be targets of opportunity on the route?

As to sitting 25km off a station and waiting to be engaged all I've got to say is that acting like obvious bait and expecting someone to engage you solo with station guns against them as well as the possibility that you have friendlies waiting to join the fun isn't going to happen.


I hadn't even thought about the station guns! I stayed off station so that they knew I couldn't just dock up the second someone showed up. One of my corpmates had to go AFK and was docked up, which is why I was hanging around the station anyway.

Semi-nomadic corp seeking new and veteran players
Bischopt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-10-14 16:04:48 UTC
Rykki Atruin wrote:
Do you want to know why we don't go to low sec?

Because no one there wants a 'good fight.' I organized a frigate fleet to introduce some of our newbs to PvP. We knew we would lose our ships. It was actually our goal. No one in fleet was allowed to return to high sec in the frigate they brought. We announced in local that we were noobs and wouldn't leave until we had seen some action. Our fleet comp was known to the locals (and commented on). Guess who showed up to fight us? A group of HACs. Seriously. A group of HACs showed up to fight three newbs in t1 frigates.

Was it fun for those who live in low sec to welp on T1 frigs in HACs? It wasn't fun for us to die before we even got into range to shoot at anyone.

We came back in cruisers and no one engaged us. Seriously. I sat 25km off station in my T1 cruiser and *no one* engaged. Much to my dismay I left back to high sec in my cruiser.

I get that everyone likes to win, but no one likes to lose *all the time no matter what they bring!* If someone (with obviously more SP and T2 guns) had come out to engage us in a T1 frigate we *all* would have had more fun (and 99% chance they would have won)... but that's not what happened.

TL;DR
No one goes to low sec because no one in low sec is willing to have actual 'good fights' and engage new players to PvP in a way that makes it fun for the new player (i.e. bringing HACs out to fight T1 frigates)


Making yourself an obvious and easy target isn't generally a good idea. People looking for kills rather than a good fight will take advantage of the situation.

Since this is not really related to the topic I'll keep it short, but I've found newbies tend to avoid fights in lowsec even if they have superior numbers. Recently I ran into a group of 9-10 players who were all either new(ish) to eve or pvp. I was flying an imperial navy slicer, they were flying t1 frigates with at least one slicer with them, and still I really had to bait them to make the fight happen.

For me it was very much a good fight since they all came after me, I lived and got 5 (including who I think was their FC) kills out of it. Not sure how they saw it but it was fair enough and a lot of fun.

The point is, you can get "good fights", they're just usually not that obvious. In this case it was 9v1 but I had all the experience while they had none. To be fair, the FC seemed to know what he was doing but he was in a merlin and thus much slower than me.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#37 - 2013-10-14 16:11:50 UTC
Rykki Atruin wrote:

Do you need to be in FW to use FW complexes? Also, I have no experience in FW low sec and no idea about the game mechanics there...

*decides to read up on FW*

I also hadn't though about the 'tourist' factor, but with as much complaining I see on the forums about lack of targets I would imagine anyone new coming into low sec would be appreciated.




No, you don't need to be in FW to enter a plex. it's common to use them just as a ship type "filter" also for people not in FW.

Low-sec is very good for small gang/solo/casual PvP. I don't see so many people compleining about the lack of targets or fights. The ones complaining are generally high-seccer sating "you LS residents need more targets in LS, you need to incentive us to move there". But LS residents are generally fine and happly shootting one each other :)
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#38 - 2013-10-14 19:25:22 UTC
Extremely draconian ideals of what should happen to people who fight in highsec? Confirmed.

Nonsensical redefinement of what lowsec is? Confirmed.

Extreme punishment of people who choose to PvP in lowsec, lasting for an unreal amount of time? Confirmed.

Removal of one module that is VITAL to PvP in areas where PvP can still legitimately happen for non-ganking? Confirmed.

Smug comment rounding off the end of OP's post? Confirmed.

I'm sorry but I immediately have to assume that someone has been ganking you endlessly. In addition- you mention nothing about war mechanics. Will warp disruptors still be allowed to work on wartargets? Or are they just completely banned, so that if a war target appears, any and all aggressors will have to undertake the freighter-gank method for actually getting kills, and just throwing away their ships AND pods due to CONCORD, making the victim the 'winner' of every fight? Or is your suggestion just "well hurr it's so easy you have to be stupid just take your wars to the new lowsec"? Because that doesn't make any sense.
Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#39 - 2013-10-14 21:31:40 UTC
Bischopt wrote:
Some good advice and an awesome story about a 9v1 fight that she won


I guess I have some things to learn about how to pick up PvP engagements.

I would have been quite happy to have been in that fleet and would have considered you a worthy and honorable opponent!

Sura Sadiva wrote:
Some useful information about low sec and factional warfare


Thanks! I'll have to check out FW sites then...

I guess what I read on the forums isn't what it's actually like in game... (go figure)

Semi-nomadic corp seeking new and veteran players
Katia Echerie
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#40 - 2013-10-14 21:55:20 UTC
Completely disagree with your idea. Its not the way to go.

Here's my thoughts:

First of all if the idea is to fix Low-Sec then changing mechanics in high-sec will do absolutely nothing.

Instead, what has to be done is provide low-sec with content unavailable anywhere else.
Currently we have faction warfare in low-sec which to be frank is a very good way to get PvP fights for solo and small gangs. It is however still broken in its current state and could use another round of improvements. That content however isn't for everyone.

As many have said, PvE in low-sec is pretty poor. It will take a lot of scanning to find something worth killing and exploring. Even then you are probably better off running level 4s (that is if you are trying to make ISK). What I would propose is that there should be some different kind of PVE that can't be found anywhere else. Perhaps having incursion style rats with large bounties in all of low-sec is the solution. Rats that you would have to use PvP style fits to kill. In order to balance them versus null-sec, having them pay out LP instead of ISK might prove an interesting alternative. It is my opinion that the rewards for living in null and low-sec should be of similar monetary magnitude but differ in task. I would almost consider low-sec to be MORE dangerous than null sec. Hence, that is the problem of low-sec. There is very little reward to being there unless you are there to blow up other people.
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