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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1641 - 2013-10-13 19:39:13 UTC
I'm not even sure I'd call it on that fit vs a cynabal brawling with hail.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#1642 - 2013-10-13 19:49:28 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
People keep saying "this ship is OP" and posting unrealistic max-gank fits that even the New Order wouldn't undock in. Fits that would explode in a ball of fiery death the second they're even targeted, let alone fired upon. Stop that.

Any ship can punch several levels above its weight class if you forget to bother with a tank.


Only that this ship does have quite some tank, if you fit a nano instead of the magstab you can fit one Invul lifting it to Cynabal level, just that it has either double the DPS close range (Heavies) or long range (Sentries).

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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#1643 - 2013-10-13 20:01:24 UTC
Also it was supposed to require
CCP Rise wrote:
some interesting tradeoffs

to fit the covops cloak, I didnt need to make any tradeoffs whatsoever.

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1644 - 2013-10-13 20:11:01 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Why would I use Medium Drones against anything larger than a destroyer?
The problem is this ship doesnt need to make any compromises, like the Cynabal or old Cane (largest guns, tank mods and full rack of damage modules? No problem!).
Youre left with a 1k DPS Cruiser with 31k EHP (shield) or a 775 DPS Cruiser with 54k EHP (armor), not to mention the ability to fit a tripple rep tank without using any fitting mods, which is unique among all cruiser hulls.
T3s should be rather counted as Battlecruisers or Battleships.

You can do the same with any drone cruiser. Have you ever seen a Navy Vexor or Ishatr fited this way ? No, because they are not good except for very niche situations you never encounter.

The problem with these fits is that you add too weapon systems with very high dps numbers but absolutely crap damage application : blasters and heavy drones. They do wonders IF you can apply the dps. But applying this dps will be everything you'll be fighting for ; and each small second something doesn't go perfectly good, then your dps drop by a HUGE amount.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1645 - 2013-10-13 20:15:24 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Only that this ship does have quite some tank, if you fit a nano instead of the magstab you can fit one Invul lifting it to Cynabal level, just that it has either double the DPS close range (Heavies) or long range (Sentries).

Look at the speed before talking about Cynabal.

And the Stratios is amount the slowest cruisers in game BTW. That's something to consider. This ship commit to any fight it pick, which mean a lot for survivability.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#1646 - 2013-10-13 20:19:47 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Why would I use Medium Drones against anything larger than a destroyer?
The problem is this ship doesnt need to make any compromises, like the Cynabal or old Cane (largest guns, tank mods and full rack of damage modules? No problem!).
Youre left with a 1k DPS Cruiser with 31k EHP (shield) or a 775 DPS Cruiser with 54k EHP (armor), not to mention the ability to fit a tripple rep tank without using any fitting mods, which is unique among all cruiser hulls.
T3s should be rather counted as Battlecruisers or Battleships.

You can do the same with any drone cruiser. Have you ever seen a Navy Vexor or Ishatr fited this way ? No, because they are not good except for very niche situations you never encounter.

The problem with these fits is that you add too weapon systems with very high dps numbers but absolutely crap damage application : blasters and heavy drones. They do wonders IF you can apply the dps. But applying this dps will be everything you'll be fighting for ; and each small second something doesn't go perfectly good, then your dps drop by a HUGE amount.


Thats why I fitted a Scram and a web instead of scram + invul in my initial fit. Neutron Blasters have ridiculous damage application tbh. I also wouldnt commit to a fight where I can get kited, but thats a different story.

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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#1647 - 2013-10-13 20:21:43 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Only that this ship does have quite some tank, if you fit a nano instead of the magstab you can fit one Invul lifting it to Cynabal level, just that it has either double the DPS close range (Heavies) or long range (Sentries).

Look at the speed before talking about Cynabal.

And the Stratios is amount the slowest cruisers in game BTW. That's something to consider. This ship commit to any fight it pick, which mean a lot for survivability.


If the Cynabal tries to kite me I just drop Sentries.
Thats another point: The Stratios has a far too large drone bay, not even the Dominix gets one this large.

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1648 - 2013-10-13 20:35:06 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Thats why I fitted a Scram and a web instead of scram + invul in my initial fit. Neutron Blasters have ridiculous damage application tbh. I also wouldnt commit to a fight where I can get kited, but thats a different story.

Neutron have the tracking of ion with void and that never was considered good ; unless you talk neutron/null at range but that don't seem to be the goal of your fit....

And commit to a brawl, and two times out of three you'll see backup coming and won't escape.

It doesn't take a cloak to gank, and a pirate ship is basicaly screaming "gank me" 20 jumps around.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#1649 - 2013-10-13 20:51:52 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Thats why I fitted a Scram and a web instead of scram + invul in my initial fit. Neutron Blasters have ridiculous damage application tbh. I also wouldnt commit to a fight where I can get kited, but thats a different story.

Neutron have the tracking of ion with void and that never was considered good ; unless you talk neutron/null at range but that don't seem to be the goal of your fit....

And commit to a brawl, and two times out of three you'll see backup coming and won't escape.

It doesn't take a cloak to gank, and a pirate ship is basicaly screaming "gank me" 20 jumps around.



Thats the question of your playstyle not of the fit.
I can assure you that inside of scramrange and scramwebbed neutrons can hit cruiser targets very well while smaller targets arent a problem because your drones finish them off fast enough.

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1650 - 2013-10-13 21:56:00 UTC
Ok, so I will adress the problem in two times and start by the huge dps legend.

[Ishtar, gank]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Internal Force Field Array I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
10MN Microwarpdrive II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Modal Electron Particle Accelerator I, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Modal Electron Particle Accelerator I, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Modal Electron Particle Accelerator I, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Ogre II x5
Basically the same as your Stratios. But we have better for shield drone ship :
[Gila, ogres]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Internal Force Field Array I

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
10MN Microwarpdrive II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

[Empty High slot]
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
[Empty High slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Ogre II x5
901dps, 46,8kehp.

Is it OP ? I doubt it, or we would see more of them flying in space...

Then, the cloaky thing :
[Proteus, cloaky-gank+]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
10MN Afterburner II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
107kehp, 637dps overloaded, cloak, extended scram range, double prop.
3 times the tank, 60% of the dps, and some goodies on top.
I personaly never saw one flying. I heard they act as heavy tacklefor wormhole dwellers or blops fleets, but that's all. The cloaky combat T3 maybe the one people complain the least about.

So, to sum up :
-High dps gank ship ? check, we have it ;
-cloaky brawler of doom ? check, we have it.
So what does the Stratios will bring we don't already have ?
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1651 - 2013-10-13 22:14:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Does the Stratios stats not just obsolete the Arazu as a close in covert tackler?
I mean, it will outank it, out DPS it, and outscan it, while fitting the covert cloak.

But it has no tackle range bonus and no damp bonus.

I think the Stratios is insanely OP as it is now proposed, being able to easily fit 1044 DPS and a 31k EHP shield buffer tank pre links (scramweb).
Its basically one of those ships you cant conter in its own ship size.
Fit I used as reference:

[Stratios, maxdps]

Internal Force Field Array I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Ogre II x5


Zainou 'Gypsy' Electronics EE-602


You could fit instead of the magstab a nano and push its aligntime below 4 seconds, sacrificing ~40 DPS and being able to fit a full t2 fit instead of the meta modules.


You can build the same thing but with better everything (T2 modules, more resists, faster, same dps) in an ishtar.

Also, the mwd sig bonus, heavy drone speed and tracking and sentry range and tracking AND drone range bonuses.

SO no, it wont be beating out the ishtar, a T2 ship, at being a better drone boat.

the only thing it has going for it would be the cloak and exploration bonuses.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Mr Doctor
Star Nation
Goonswarm Federation
#1652 - 2013-10-13 22:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Doctor
Ishtar cant cloak.... its kind of a big thing.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1653 - 2013-10-13 22:20:11 UTC
Mr Doctor wrote:
Ishtar cant cloak....

So you are saying that the cloaky proteus have too many tank and not enough dps to be a threat ?
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1654 - 2013-10-13 22:23:21 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Mr Doctor wrote:
Ishtar cant cloak....

So you are saying that the cloaky proteus have too many tank and not enough dps to be a threat ?

Proteus is used as a brick tank. Theres also the issue of the XP loss and although you shouldn't balance on cost it is also plenty more expensive. How much does an ishtar hull cost anyways compared to a pirate cruiser hull?

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1655 - 2013-10-13 22:26:00 UTC
Mr Doctor wrote:
Ishtar cant cloak.... its kind of a big thing.

How does the cloak help when you are shooting at stuff?

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1656 - 2013-10-13 22:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Shield tanking a Stratios, even a gank one, is the stupidest thing ever. A tracking disruptor and an afterburner is a better tank than any amount of shield extenders, especially when neut fit. If you're afterburnering in a cruiser and not webbed any missile larger than RLMs is going to hit for pitiful amounts of damage.

[New Setup 1]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

10MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I,Optimal Range Disruption Script
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I,Optimal Range Disruption Script

Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Or:

[New Setup 1]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
10MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I,Optimal Range Disruption Script

Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

950 DPS, 50k EHP, doesn't give a **** about your friend in the cynabal as they won't be doing anything to you.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1657 - 2013-10-13 23:07:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Baali Tekitsu wrote:

If the Cynabal tries to kite me I just drop Sentries.
Thats another point: The Stratios has a far too large drone bay, not even the Dominix gets one this large.


Unbonused (tracking) sentries against a cynabal thats not in web range? your gonna lose atleast 2/3rds of your potential drone damage.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1658 - 2013-10-13 23:15:58 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ok, so I will adress the problem in two times and start by the huge dps legend.

[Ishtar, gank]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Internal Force Field Array I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
10MN Microwarpdrive II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Modal Electron Particle Accelerator I, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Modal Electron Particle Accelerator I, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
Modal Electron Particle Accelerator I, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge M
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Ogre II x5
Basically the same as your Stratios. But we have better for shield drone ship :
[Gila, ogres]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Internal Force Field Array I

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
10MN Microwarpdrive II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

[Empty High slot]
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
[Empty High slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Ogre II x5
901dps, 46,8kehp.

Is it OP ? I doubt it, or we would see more of them flying in space...

Then, the cloaky thing :
[Proteus, cloaky-gank+]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
10MN Afterburner II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor
107kehp, 637dps overloaded, cloak, extended scram range, double prop.
3 times the tank, 60% of the dps, and some goodies on top.
I personaly never saw one flying. I heard they act as heavy tacklefor wormhole dwellers or blops fleets, but that's all. The cloaky combat T3 maybe the one people complain the least about.

So, to sum up :
-High dps gank ship ? check, we have it ;
-cloaky brawler of doom ? check, we have it.
So what does the Stratios will bring we don't already have ?


Because t3's are totally balanced...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#1659 - 2013-10-13 23:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dehval
Anize Oramara wrote:
Mr Doctor wrote:
Ishtar cant cloak.... its kind of a big thing.

How does the cloak help when you are shooting at stuff?
It doesn't.

It helps you pick what you are going to shoot. The reason you never see full gank setups on PvP ships is because you often have to forgo your ability to engage targets on your own terms, which is pretty much the only situation where full gank works. The Stratios has a cloak which solves that problem, and the cloak doesn't exactly give it any fitting problems. To compare it to a similar, uncloaked, ship is criminal. The closest thing we can compare this to is a Cloaky Proteus which has more tank but less Gank. Although, when cloaky ganking, as the practice implies, gank is more important than tank as your cloak is the majority of your tank. I am even doubtful this ship will cost that much more than your average Navy cruiser based off the number of missioners participating in the SoE gold rush. Without a prohibitive cost I could easily see this becoming an increasingly common sight.

The ship is a low risk, high reward monster. It doesn't have to engage when it doesn't want to, and when it does it has so much dps that unless it is fighting against a ship specifically tanked against it the window of opportunity to catch it is very short. Give it more risk to balance its high reward potential.

Xequecal wrote:
Shield tanking a Stratios, even a gank one, is the stupidest thing ever.

It has its place. Killing ratters, who will commonly be found in slow battlecruisers and above where you do not need offensive modules to apply full dps and where your best tank is to kill them before help arrives. Also, any EWAR would immediately cause rats to aggro onto you and that is a nono.

Also, I would use two webs over dual prop/dual TD. It makes sure that nothing is faster than you, and more importantly nothing is faster than your drones. Of course you could also just not choose to engage something that has the potential to be AB fit which would make the above point obsolete. Because, you know, the Stratios can cloak.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1660 - 2013-10-14 00:10:41 UTC
This thread is full of people who blob gang all the time and don't understand the importance of effective and applied DPS, so they churn out crazy EFT fits that no one will ever use and say that "it gets 1000 DPS!!111 omgz1! op too stronk stronk! narf narf narf nao!" while not realizing that the effective, applied DPS is probably a third to half of that (330 - 500).