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HOW TO ABUSE THE LEGIT WARDEC EXPLOITS
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Dutarro
Ghezer Aramih
#61 - 2011-11-16 22:25:36 UTC
Quote:
The consequences for me? I've had to take down most of the modules for my POS's, online my hardeners, ECM/Neuts and guns. I have significantly altered my EVE activities and I can't do a lot of the things I did before. Freighter runs are now a no-no unless I have heavy escort. Mining is pretty much out of the question when there are war targets online.


Probably your attackers were mostly out to destroy your tower and loot the modules. By taking down the labs, etc., you made their objective unattainable, so they aren't bothering to fight. They will probably let the dec expire at the end of the week and find a less attentive target.

You could just fit your POS with some defensive modules and some industrial modules, and leave it that way in peace and war alike. Less industrial output per fuel block, but then you don't need to suspend operations when dec'ed. Also, if potential attackers see a few neuts and guns on your POS, they might not bother dec'ing you in the first place.
mkint
#62 - 2011-11-16 22:38:43 UTC
Dutarro wrote:
Quote:
The consequences for me? I've had to take down most of the modules for my POS's, online my hardeners, ECM/Neuts and guns. I have significantly altered my EVE activities and I can't do a lot of the things I did before. Freighter runs are now a no-no unless I have heavy escort. Mining is pretty much out of the question when there are war targets online.


Probably your attackers were mostly out to destroy your tower and loot the modules. By taking down the labs, etc., you made their objective unattainable, so they aren't bothering to fight. They will probably let the dec expire at the end of the week and find a less attentive target.

You could just fit your POS with some defensive modules and some industrial modules, and leave it that way in peace and war alike. Less industrial output per fuel block, but then you don't need to suspend operations when dec'ed. Also, if potential attackers see a few neuts and guns on your POS, they might not bother dec'ing you in the first place.

killing a highsec pos is trivially easy. Highsec POSes should always be kept in 1-man alt corps, fit with the bare minimum, and pulled down in the 24-hour lead up to aggression. Defensive modules on a POS are nearly meaningless unless it's a deathstar and you have 5-6 active POS gunners, and that won't be a target for the typical POS wardec. They go for small industrial corps and alliances with embarrassing killboard stats.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#63 - 2011-11-16 22:41:17 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
This picture will show you exactly the step by step process on how to achieve highsec immunity from wardecs, and to save any of your towers infinitely. Your highsec towers will be completely invulnerable, no amount of wardecs will be able to destroy them, ever.

The exploit

For more information about the legality of this, visit this thread here, and see the GM ruling here.

CCP loves the mission bears, now go forth and use their exploits to enhance your gameplay. I will aid any of you with these abuses, Dec Shield will stand for the people. If you wish to promote a change to the current system of legal abuse, please give your support here.

To see a list of people we've aided with this in the past please visit our Dotlan listing. Every day we aid more corporations evade wardecs.


Gee, I wonder what happens if TEST takes you up on your offer. RollBlinkTwisted
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#64 - 2011-11-16 22:56:11 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:


Welcome to eve. Your POS is not supposed to be happy-funtime immunity. Anchoring a POS is placing that POS at risk.


Oh I'm not asking for immunity at all. Anchoring in high sec protects me from capital fleets, and that's it. However there is something to be said about a PVP corp that only decs industrial corps that maybe have a drake or two somewhere in their entire ship inventory. While yes, I suppose I could put my 50+ million SP to use fighting other players, it's just not my cup of tea. You want to force a fight, and then tell me to toughen up my defenses - that's not why I play EVE. I play it for BPOs, for research, and for relaxation.

So we're back to the argument about the sandbox. Some people like to build sand castles. Some people like to kick other people's castles down. Do whatever makes you happy but if I'm in high sec, which frankly is a pain in the arse and quite limited in terms of what you can do, I have gone out of my way to be out of YOUR way. If you insist on coming after me it means that either you don't have the guts to fight people who are looking for a fight, or you just think you can extract more tears that way.

Just be careful when you kick those sand castles. Some of us actually know how to pour concrete.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#65 - 2011-11-16 23:01:23 UTC
mkint wrote:
Defensive modules on a POS are nearly meaningless unless it's a deathstar


check

mkint wrote:
and you have 5-6 active POS gunners


check

It's wasn't a death star, just an Amarr Tower with a corp hanger and ship fitting station. But now it's a death star. Too bad they won't come though, my last character just finished starbase defense management V today. :)
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2011-11-16 23:05:47 UTC
mkint wrote:
killing a highsec pos is trivially easy.

Not really. You just needed blobs of subcaps. Highsec POS''s were already harder to kill then Nullsec POS's just because you cant drop capitals on them.

However, now Highsec POS kills are literally impossible. You simply can not kill them anymore. There is now a switch you can flick and it removes the wardec and your POS is magically safe.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2011-11-16 23:10:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
So yes, the argument for you to go pick on players that do want to fight is quite appropriate in this case.
If you don't want to fight, don't plant a POS. In fact, don't create a corp. Doing either means you're in it for the competitive advantage, and robbing you of that advantage should always be an option.

OR, if you don't like the rules being laid out by the game designers then don't play their game? See? We both can be witty.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2011-11-16 23:15:47 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
You see? Another kid who thinks he is entitled to be 100% invulnerable in Highsec.

Nope. Just another "kid" that thinks the war dec mechanics need a complete overhaul. And a kid that really doesn't care much for sadists.
Quote:
These are the people who CCP are listening to now. Its their game now. In a year or two this will be Hello Kitty Online (Paintable pink ships here we come)

Man, it's gonna be awesome! Will you then play with me?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2011-11-16 23:31:02 UTC

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
We raise awareness by abusing this loophole loudly in public. I really hope CCP changes things to prevent what we're doing.

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
There seems to be a lack of reading comprehension in this thread by a fair number of people... Everyone here making arguments that we should "move to low/nullsec" or stop griefing carebears doesn't even make sense since we're not doing any fighting ourselves. We're the ones saving these people.

The only comprehension problems seem to be coming from you.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
mkint
#70 - 2011-11-16 23:34:32 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
mkint wrote:
killing a highsec pos is trivially easy.

Not really. You just needed blobs of subcaps. Highsec POS''s were already harder to kill then Nullsec POS's just because you cant drop capitals on them.

However, now Highsec POS kills are literally impossible. You simply can not kill them anymore. There is now a switch you can flick and it removes the wardec and your POS is magically safe.

5-6 RR battleships can kill a small POS in about two one hour sessions, regardless of it's defenses. Small and medium POSes are pretty much the norm for highsec. Proper defenses might make it more annoying, but most of the time the defenses suck.

yes, large deathstars are a different matter. Those don't get wardecced unless there's a grudge involved.

Most of the time the defender corps don't know wardec mechanics at all. If they know how to play the game, the aggressor screwed up already. But I guarantee you the aggressors will only stick in the aggressing corp for only the hour it takes to POS bash, and completely avoid any real fight otherwise. Seriously, being an aggressor in a highsec wardec was always easy mode PVP.

And no, I haven't had any serious losses to aggressors. Even almost got a mom kill once chasing WT's back to lowsec. But I've seen more corps collapse to imbalanced wardec mechanics than corps who thrive. Something is fundamentally wrong with wardecs. I'm not saying they should be removed, but they should be reworked to make it stop being easy-mode for the aggressors.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal
#71 - 2011-11-16 23:48:12 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
We raise awareness by abusing this loophole loudly in public. I really hope CCP changes things to prevent what we're doing.

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
There seems to be a lack of reading comprehension in this thread by a fair number of people... Everyone here making arguments that we should "move to low/nullsec" or stop griefing carebears doesn't even make sense since we're not doing any fighting ourselves. We're the ones saving these people.

The only comprehension problems seem to be coming from you.

Everything you say should be accompanied by a side of cheese. No really, you're on a roll here. Three posts in a row. /golfClap. Please don't let me stand in your way, keep going.

I'm assuming that you think I've contradicted myself because you've double quoted me as if I had done so... I said I hope CCP changes game mechanics to prevent wardec alliance hopping abuse/tower saving (like we're offering to people). And the other quote is me saying that we were weren't doing any fighting ourselves.

How do these two quotes demonstrate a lack of comprehension by me? I think you only reinforced my original sentiment regarding you.

Burn Highsec Griefers
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2011-11-17 00:27:33 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
We raise awareness by abusing this loophole loudly in public. I really hope CCP changes things to prevent what we're doing.

The Zerg Overmind wrote:
There seems to be a lack of reading comprehension in this thread by a fair number of people... Everyone here making arguments that we should "move to low/nullsec" or stop griefing carebears doesn't even make sense since we're not doing any fighting ourselves. We're the ones saving these people.

The only comprehension problems seem to be coming from you.

Everything you say should be accompanied by a side of cheese. No really, you're on a roll here. Three posts in a row. /golfClap. Please don't let me stand in your way, keep going.

I'm assuming that you think I've contradicted myself because you've double quoted me as if I had done so... I said I hope CCP changes game mechanics to prevent wardec alliance hopping abuse/tower saving (like we're offering to people). And the other quote is me saying that we were weren't doing any fighting ourselves.

How do these two quotes demonstrate a lack of comprehension by me? I think you only reinforced my original sentiment regarding you.



Ok then. I will go ahead and spell out your inconsistency because you don't seem to have the brain power yourself.

As I said before, it's not what you're saying, but how you're saying it. On the one hand you claim to be the carebear's "savior" and doing what you do with the honest-to-goodness intention of promoting safety in hi sec and whatever else bullshit it is you're selling, and on the other hand stating that you're abusing the system because you don't like the safe haven it creates for carebears.

Is your inconsistency clearer now :)?

And your claim that you "aren't doing any fighting", well, that's just more bullshit to fuel your frivolous crusade against hi sec and carebears. Why don't you come clean on what angle it is that benefits you from allowing an absolute pay-to-grief system and then maybe we can sit down and have an honest heart-to-heart conversation about it? Whaddya say?

Or we could just continue to be silly. You claim you're a carebear savior who doesn't ever PVP and I'll claim that I'm a hardcore bad-ass PVPer that hates everything carebear Pirate (YARR is it?).

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#73 - 2011-11-17 00:56:35 UTC
Kievan Arakyd wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
War should be hellish expensive anyway. 50 Mill ISK to wardec another Corp ? That's cheaper than a packet of chips. It should cost billions to finance a war. 50 Million is a joke.

No one's going to declare war if it costs that much. This will create absolute safety in highsec; a ridiculous premise for EVE Online. EVE is about competition, and without being able to attack your rivals, none of their actions will have consequences. Bunch of guys come into your belt and bump your mining ships? Nothing you can do. Someone cleared out your corp hangars and started/joined a new corporation with your members' hard-earned ISK? You have no recourse. Someone keeps salvaging your mission wrecks? You can never touch him. Someone insulted your honor, and the honor of your significant other? Too bad, cuz you all be bitches.



Or you move to 0.0. Problem solved, unless you can't compete. Twisted

And how does moving to 0.0 enable me to attack the industrial backbone of my enemies, or fulfill my mercenary contracts?

Ptraci wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

See above.


Once again we sit on opposite sides of the table. I have a POS anchored in high sec, amongst other things. Right now I am on the receiving end of a war dec from a PvP corp. I have no idea why they decced me, they haven't written to me, threatened me or attempted to extort anything from me.

The consequences for them? Pay a few million ISK.

The consequences for me? I've had to take down most of the modules for my POS's, online my hardeners, ECM/Neuts and guns. I have significantly altered my EVE activities and I can't do a lot of the things I did before. Freighter runs are now a no-no unless I have heavy escort. Mining is pretty much out of the question when there are war targets online.

Now, don't take this as tears - if I had really wanted to get out of it, it costs nothing to make another corp like OP said, and move everyone there. But honestly I can't be that bothered - in fact I wanted to try out some POS gunnery but it looks like that's not going to happen. However I merely want to point out that a low sec/null sec corp that declares war on a high sec corp suffers absolutely no consequences. The payment is trivial. High sec corps usually are not combat oriented. Their low sec counterpart's behavior is not going to change. On the other hand the high sec corp a) had to grind standing for god knows how long for most of its members just to be able to anchor in high sec b) is prohibited from most of its activities (hauling/mining/manufacturing/research) during war time and c) is probably in no shape to try to bring the other party to the surrender table through military force.

So really the high sec corporation has a lot more to lose than the low sec one during a war. Therefore considering it's absolutely trivial to be a major PITA to someone just by deccing them, why would you want to prevent those who really don't want to fight to try to avoid a fight? What's next - forcing people to play EVE to get shot at and not be able to quit instead of logging out and coming back once the war is over? Let the people who don't want to fight run away, and fight people who are prepared to make a stand.

I'm sitting here right now waiting for a fight, and no one shows up. So who exactly is taking advantage of game mechanics here?

Sounds to me like perfectly viable EVE gameplay. You've invested time and money into industrial assets, and these people attacked you for either personal gain or removal of competition for somebody else. You can mitigate the risk you're exposed to from people like this either by scaling down your industrial ambitions, or investing in defense (not just POS guns, but pvp pilots and pvp ships and training) as part of your overall budget.

I'm not going to judge you, but it does sound to me like you want to be able to engage in whatever industrial aspects of the game you want, without intervention. People would be forced to compete with your prices on the market, but you wouldn't be forced to compete with them militarily for raw goods and freedom of movement. How would that be fair, exactly?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#74 - 2011-11-17 01:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Russell Casey
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
So how many actual high sec wardecs were motivated by leverage, revenge, and conquest?

And how many of them were "for the kills" and done against small corps of noobs?



In two years of EVE I'd say maybe three of the wars I was in were pissing contests/payback/just-for-fun oriented. The rest were pretty much LOLOLOL I AM IN YOUR BASE, SHOOTING YOUR CAREBEARZ types.

CCP just doesn't want to deal with fixing war decs right now, so they're gonna look the other way to keep smart players from being griefed out of existence until they can be bothered to work on a broken mechanic. Sorry if you have to go to low/null/wh to bash a POS, maybe you'll get lucky and their anchor managers will be on vacation when the dec goes live.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#75 - 2011-11-17 01:16:22 UTC
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
The Zerg Overmind wrote:
... That is entirely the point of this thread. That is not possible. There is a game bug that prevents you from wardeccing any corporation that has left an alliance until after the next downtime. ...


Time it right and when you are next able to attack them, their stront will have just run out.

If the owners of the tower fail to set their stront timer correctly then they can be killed yes. If they set it correctly they're invulnerable. Just because someone is terrible at the game doesn't mean the mechanics aren't broken.


If they are pulling out all the stops, then they are winning.

Castled my king - your move (basically)

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#76 - 2011-11-17 02:51:48 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
People would be forced to compete with your prices on the market, but you wouldn't be forced to compete with them militarily for raw goods and freedom of movement. How would that be fair, exactly?


You make a valid point. I guess my assumption is along the lines of I am competing with other industrial type players on the market - not with PvPers who just want to blow things up.

I guess it's the age old case of "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must". What has to be understood however is that there are people who are drawn to EVE for the industrial and economic aspect and who won't fight no matter what. Screwing with the war dec mechanics and "forcing" them to fight will just result in them not playing the game at all. And then who will get picked on when all the easy targets have left?
Vachir Khan
Rugged Ruff and Ready
#77 - 2011-11-17 02:56:44 UTC
And again, lobbying followed by ruling by a GM who didn't exactly know what the F he was doing and how much of a pandora's box it would be. Please, exploit this to the fullest so that it gets the DEV attention it deserves and the dec shield nonsense gets taken care of. Thanking OP for his effort in making this happen.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#78 - 2011-11-17 02:57:40 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
People would be forced to compete with your prices on the market, but you wouldn't be forced to compete with them militarily for raw goods and freedom of movement. How would that be fair, exactly?


You make a valid point. I guess my assumption is along the lines of I am competing with other industrial type players on the market - not with PvPers who just want to blow things up.

I guess it's the age old case of "the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must". What has to be understood however is that there are people who are drawn to EVE for the industrial and economic aspect and who won't fight no matter what. Screwing with the war dec mechanics and "forcing" them to fight will just result in them not playing the game at all. And then who will get picked on when all the easy targets have left?

These pure industrial/economic types should still be aware that in EVE, they are always susceptible to violence. They need to either learn to defend themselves, hire other people for defense with their industry profits, or, as in your Thucydides quote, to suffer what they must. In EVE, fighting is always optional, but being exposed to the possibility of being attacked isn't. That's what makes EVE, well, EVE.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Vachir Khan
Rugged Ruff and Ready
#79 - 2011-11-17 03:15:39 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
These pure industrial/economic types should still be aware that in EVE, they are always susceptible to violence. They need to either learn to defend themselves, hire other people for defense with their industry profits, or, as in your Thucydides quote, to suffer what they must. In EVE, fighting is always optional, but being exposed to the possibility of being attacked isn't. That's what makes EVE, well, EVE.


This pretty much. You don't have to enjoy PVP or even actively participate in it (other than profiting from production and sales) but you DO have to acknowledge that it's a vital part of the game. Any decent group of non-idiots can "defend" their corp to a point where it's highly unlikely they'll ever get wardecced, all it takes is a few hours of effort, thinking, figuring out and putting in some team work or perhaps (gasp) actually have a mixed sort of corp where both industrialists and pvpers work in symbiotic harmony. Becoming a victim in EVE is a CHOICE as one choose to put in some effort to avoid it, fail to put in effort then you fail to not be the victim.

In short; people who couldn't be bothered to put in effort to learn and/or avoid trouble don't have a right to a "get ouf of jail free" card.
Mrs Sooperdudespaceman
Doomheim
#80 - 2011-11-17 12:44:22 UTC
Excellent service. Endorsed by CCP. Protect your POS now people.