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Do auto-cannons have a point?
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Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2013-10-10 10:22:12 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
I have also started using small/medium beams instead of pulse w/scorch as beams actually give me way more flexibility and if you don't fall into the trap of plating the heck out of the amarr ships they can still be agile enough for most applications.


Wow, never thought I'd see someone who'd agree with me on that...which is why I rarely mention it.

I've been using beams/rails/arty for a little while now and long range weapons in general at least on small size guns pretty much from the first set of T1 frigate balance passes. My first experiment was a beam tormentor, it failed...but the beam executioner performed much better. In fact now some of my rail/beam/arty fits can track where my old scorch slicer could not and I can generally do it better with a beefier fit as well.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Psichotic
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-10-12 18:38:12 UTC
ACs have always been much more difficult to use (in the real world). Training them so you can put them on the very limited number of ships on which they are still useable a huge waste of time.

It used to be that Min was considered by many to be too powerful. Those were people who were not capable of flying them and didn't want to learn. Min takes MUCH more skill to fit and fly, so if you were interested in PvP the best way to learn was to become proficient at Min ships and weapons. When I started flying other races I found it to be comparatively easy. Now there is no point in flying Min so that is no longer a good way to train for the other races.

ACs themselves are still useful, but only on a very limited number of ships, and only if you fly those ships in very particular ways. It takes a lot of practice to fly with ACs on other races b/c you don't get the bonuses and those ships weren't meant to be flown that way.

Forget ACs and forget Minmitar. You'll be a much happier capsuleer.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#43 - 2013-10-13 11:05:10 UTC
Psichotic wrote:
ACs have always been much more difficult to use (in the real world). Training them so you can put them on the very limited number of ships on which they are still useable a huge waste of time.

It used to be that Min was considered by many to be too powerful. Those were people who were not capable of flying them and didn't want to learn. Min takes MUCH more skill to fit and fly, so if you were interested in PvP the best way to learn was to become proficient at Min ships and weapons. When I started flying other races I found it to be comparatively easy. Now there is no point in flying Min so that is no longer a good way to train for the other races.

ACs themselves are still useful, but only on a very limited number of ships, and only if you fly those ships in very particular ways. It takes a lot of practice to fly with ACs on other races b/c you don't get the bonuses and those ships weren't meant to be flown that way.

Forget ACs and forget Minmitar. You'll be a much happier capsuleer.


Minmatar ships were so hard to fly that everyone and their dogs were flying them ; two years ago I've been refused from fleets because I hadn't a minmatar ship.

Yet AC haven't been nerfed except with the TE nerf. The only problem of AC can be neutron blasters with null ammo which might have been overbuffed, but otherwise you can't have everything. Minamatar ship are the fastest, and AC don't use cap and are the most versatile weapons. But yes, it takes a bit of knowledge and practice to use them effectively and you won't outbrawl a blaster ship, as expected.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#44 - 2013-10-13 11:15:39 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Psichotic wrote:
ACs have always been much more difficult to use (in the real world). Training them so you can put them on the very limited number of ships on which they are still useable a huge waste of time.

It used to be that Min was considered by many to be too powerful. Those were people who were not capable of flying them and didn't want to learn. Min takes MUCH more skill to fit and fly, so if you were interested in PvP the best way to learn was to become proficient at Min ships and weapons. When I started flying other races I found it to be comparatively easy. Now there is no point in flying Min so that is no longer a good way to train for the other races.

ACs themselves are still useful, but only on a very limited number of ships, and only if you fly those ships in very particular ways. It takes a lot of practice to fly with ACs on other races b/c you don't get the bonuses and those ships weren't meant to be flown that way.

Forget ACs and forget Minmitar. You'll be a much happier capsuleer.


Minmatar ships were so hard to fly that everyone and their dogs were flying them ; two years ago I've been refused from fleets because I hadn't a minmatar ship.

Yet AC haven't been nerfed except with the TE nerf. The only problem of AC can be neutron blasters with null ammo which might have been overbuffed, but otherwise you can't have everything. Minamatar ship are the fastest, and AC don't use cap and are the most versatile weapons. But yes, it takes a bit of knowledge and practice to use them effectively and you won't outbrawl a blaster ship, as expected.

blaster and especially null buffs made ACs obsolete.
TE nerf just closed the deal to make AC not worthy anymore for me
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-10-13 12:03:24 UTC
Psichotic wrote:
Forget ACs and forget Minmitar. You'll be a much happier capsuleer.



The more people will believe this the more will be flying something else, those knowing how ACs work and how to fit their ships will get more fun.

ACs are awesome, arty still way "waw" factor, you guys just don't want to learn how to fly them or were used to be a pownmachine 1vs 5 and kill them all.
It's good other weapon systems became useful and ships good enough to make things challenging. Fly them all and tell us more about ACs being bad.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#46 - 2013-10-13 13:25:29 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
KeeganWaffle wrote:
From a PvP perspective it seams like there's no room for them anymore.

They have less DPS then blasters at point blank.

They have less DPS at medium ranges then scorch.




I think the whole "blasters track better" thing needs to be moved over to auto-cannons.

Gotta say, I really appreciate that he's at least honest and says "Scorch", as opposed to "Lasers".


Scorch need to be nerfed to the ground

Maybe then amarr laser boats can be properly balanced.


Care to explain why Scorch needs a nerf?

They are the only ammo that pushes short range gun's optimal range to reasonable distances... they pay for it in limited damage types, heavier cap use, and the worst tracking out of all 3 short range guns.

I'm not seeing why they need to nerfed.


Scorch needs to be nerfed so that amarr ships can be buffed.

Pretty sick of all amarr lasers boats only being used "because scorch"

Same applies to all t2 ammo, t2 ammo is supposed to be niche ****, not your god damn go too.



This. I really want to get to a point where more than one crystal is used with any regularity (ok, two if you want to count Conflag for station bashing). Basing an entire line of weapon systems on one crystal is backwards, and needs corrections.

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Blodhgarm Dethahal
8 Sins of Man
Stray Dogs.
#47 - 2013-10-13 13:58:10 UTC
If you really can't think of any Amarr ship that doesn't rely completely on Scorch then you don't know how to use Amarr's full potential.

See..
Punsiher.. excelent for brawling
Tormentor.. also good brawling ship
Maller.. good brawling as well.. not a bad bait too
Navy Augoror.. has great staying power and solid DPS in addition to 2 utility highs!
Harbinger.. you could shield tank it and kite but really? a good frontline fit for this works well
Navy Harbinger.. also a good frontline fighter.. fun to dual web frigs and blap them with Conflag because of the tracking bonus
Apoc/Navy Apoc/Navy Geddon.. all good ships to supply supplemental DPS to a small Gang w/o Scorch

Scorch is far from Amarr's only ammo type, there are plenty more ships that can use other ammos effectively.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#48 - 2013-10-14 02:13:14 UTC
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
If you really can't think of any Amarr ship that doesn't rely completely on Scorch then you don't know how to use Amarr's full potential.

See..
Punsiher.. excelent for brawling
Tormentor.. also good brawling ship
Maller.. good brawling as well.. not a bad bait too
Navy Augoror.. has great staying power and solid DPS in addition to 2 utility highs!
Harbinger.. you could shield tank it and kite but really? a good frontline fit for this works well
Navy Harbinger.. also a good frontline fighter.. fun to dual web frigs and blap them with Conflag because of the tracking bonus
Apoc/Navy Apoc/Navy Geddon.. all good ships to supply supplemental DPS to a small Gang w/o Scorch

Scorch is far from Amarr's only ammo type, there are plenty more ships that can use other ammos effectively.

Punisher: Is slow and has only 2 mids, meaning no range control. It relies on Scorch to save its ass from anything that tries to scram-kite, and relies on Scorch to apply damage to other true brawlers (that have higher tracking and DPS at close range while having sufficient tank to survive to that point) before they get in close and close the deal.

Tormentor: Oh lawdy, a 3rd mid! Still is slow in comparison to most other Frigates, and relies on Scorch to save it from anything that doens't want to hump it. Can also be flown frequently as a heavy scram kiter. It is doable without Scorch, but you'd be better off with any other true brawler.

Maller: See Punisher. Uses Scorch to chase off kiters (out to around warp disruptor range) and to apply damage to other, higher damage, better tracking brawlers.

Navy Augoror: Okay, I'll agree. It's just frakking awesome. But Scorch isn't to be scoffed at at all.

Harbinger: See Maller, Punisher. Really, bricks with range control and only moderate DPS/tracking are absolutely reliant on establishing early advantage to others with better damage and application in their preferred ranges. It also has enough mids for full tackle and a cap booster! Wow, now we don't have to decide between application and crippling capacitor issues or capacitor security and inability to apply damage.

Navy Harbinger: The Phantasm 2.0. Can't disagree here, finally some tracking to compete with other brawl boats, and FRAKKING MID SLOTS!

Apoc/Napoc: ... Have you ever heard of Foxcats? Also, 100km Pulse Lasers with great tracking for the DPS they are applying at that range is great.

Navy Geddon: For use as a facemelter, keep at 20km with lower transversal, load conflag, melt face.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#49 - 2013-10-14 03:53:42 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:
If you really can't think of any Amarr ship that doesn't rely completely on Scorch then you don't know how to use Amarr's full potential.

See..
Punsiher.. excelent for brawling
Tormentor.. also good brawling ship
Maller.. good brawling as well.. not a bad bait too
Navy Augoror.. has great staying power and solid DPS in addition to 2 utility highs!
Harbinger.. you could shield tank it and kite but really? a good frontline fit for this works well
Navy Harbinger.. also a good frontline fighter.. fun to dual web frigs and blap them with Conflag because of the tracking bonus
Apoc/Navy Apoc/Navy Geddon.. all good ships to supply supplemental DPS to a small Gang w/o Scorch

Scorch is far from Amarr's only ammo type, there are plenty more ships that can use other ammos effectively.

Punisher: Is slow and has only 2 mids, meaning no range control. It relies on Scorch to save its ass from anything that tries to scram-kite, and relies on Scorch to apply damage to other true brawlers (that have higher tracking and DPS at close range while having sufficient tank to survive to that point) before they get in close and close the deal.

Tormentor: Oh lawdy, a 3rd mid! Still is slow in comparison to most other Frigates, and relies on Scorch to save it from anything that doens't want to hump it. Can also be flown frequently as a heavy scram kiter. It is doable without Scorch, but you'd be better off with any other true brawler.

Maller: See Punisher. Uses Scorch to chase off kiters (out to around warp disruptor range) and to apply damage to other, higher damage, better tracking brawlers.

Navy Augoror: Okay, I'll agree. It's just frakking awesome. But Scorch isn't to be scoffed at at all.

Harbinger: See Maller, Punisher. Really, bricks with range control and only moderate DPS/tracking are absolutely reliant on establishing early advantage to others with better damage and application in their preferred ranges. It also has enough mids for full tackle and a cap booster! Wow, now we don't have to decide between application and crippling capacitor issues or capacitor security and inability to apply damage.

Navy Harbinger: The Phantasm 2.0. Can't disagree here, finally some tracking to compete with other brawl boats, and FRAKKING MID SLOTS!

Apoc/Napoc: ... Have you ever heard of Foxcats? Also, 100km Pulse Lasers with great tracking for the DPS they are applying at that range is great.

Navy Geddon: For use as a facemelter, keep at 20km with lower transversal, load conflag, melt face.


Another person who fails to think outside the box and can only see amarr being able to do one thing badly.......hmmm

.....

Nah can't be bothered to point some glaringly obvious mistakes in this post. I've said them too many time now to GAF if people just want to believe **** without actually thinking for themselves....ah well. Roll

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-10-14 13:05:22 UTC
Amarr ships (generally) can't dictate range. They'll be fighting at whatever range the other pilot wants to fight. This is compensated by range.

Minmatar ships (generally) can always dictate range. This is compensated by their guns being more dependent on range. This means, as a minmatar pilot, you'll need to look at the weapons that the other pilot is flying. If he's using blasters, keep your distance, if he's using lasers, go in close and out track him. If he's in an armor ship, load fusion. If he's in a shield ship, load EMP. You need to use your flexibility to win.

P.S.: Your ammo type should be loaded before the first shot is fired. If you need to swap out mid combat you were doing something wrong (or you were baited)
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