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Understanding BPO Waste % and the Prod Eff skill

Author
Karrin Rawlter
The Darieux Society
#1 - 2013-10-12 02:11:01 UTC
Hello all!

I have been trying to do more in-depth calculation of my costs and profits and after reading EvElopedia I am having difficulty understanding ML and the Production Efficiency skill.

A few questions:

1) Is the waste % of a blueprint the % of the bill of materials that is going to waste, or is it a % multiplied onto a base value to result in the bill of materials? In math, for a 5% waste BP, is it:
(Listed quantity)*0.95=(Base quantity)
or
(Base quantity)*1.05=(Listed quantity)

2) Does production efficiency reduce a base amount or a surcharge amount, and does it do this by 5% or 5 percentage points per rank? In math, is it:

(Base Quantity)*(1.25-(0.05* Rank of Prod Eff) = (Listed Quantity)
or
(Base Quantity)*(1+(.25*(1-(0.05* Rank of Pred Eff) ) )= (Listed Quantity)
or
(Base Quantity)*(1-(0.05* Rank of Prod Eff) = (Listed Quantity)?

As I said, I tried Evelopedia but the language used conveyed different ideas, and some of their examples fit one way mathematically and some another.

To whoever writes EvElopedia:
Reducing a % by a % is not the same thing as subtracting percentages. Reducing 10% Waste by 5% results in 9.5% waste, not 5% waste.
Increasing a value X by 10% and then decreasing the new value Y by 10% does not result in the original value X.
Multiplying by 1.1 and dividing by .9 are not the same thing (close though!).
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-10-12 02:14:01 UTC
Karrin Rawlter
The Darieux Society
#3 - 2013-10-12 02:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrin Rawlter
Abdiel Kavash wrote:


That kind of helps, but I don't see how it links the bill of materials with the waste %, nor does it tell me what the waste % means :/

EDIT: Yeah that site doesn't really help. Could you maybe just answer my questions?
Rekon X
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-10-12 04:26:50 UTC
evemon, start a plan, blueprint browser

Definition of goon - a stupid person Those who can do, those who can't spew

Karrin Rawlter
The Darieux Society
#5 - 2013-10-12 05:22:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrin Rawlter
The problem stems from very casual and loose use of words, particularly 'waste' and 'factor'.

Lets say your neighbor is an apple farmer who uses a an apple masher with a visual display. In an ideal world this machine needs to churn 100 apples to make one Juice Crate.

However, his machine wastes 15% of the apples inserted. The machine's readout might say "I screw up 15% of the total mats you provide and they go to Waste. I need 117.65 (X*0.85 = 100, X=117.65) apples for this batch so that I end up with 100."
So you see here how the machine's bill of materials for 1 Juice Crate run says "15% waste, 117.65 apples required"

Imagine another apple masher. This one's readout says "In my angry state I am going to eat 15% of your planned batch, so I need 115 apples for this batch so that I end up with 100"
Now we have a bill of mats that ALSO reads"15% waste" but it's "115 apples required"

So, now that I've asked my question a 2nd time in a different way, can someone answer which of these two scenarios describes EvE? Does the waste % on a BP represent the % of total mats wasted, or does it represent the % of a perfect batch you must duplicate the mats for?

EDIT: I have tried to look at formulas, but they don't make much sense either. Half the formulas have "Base Waste Factor" = 10 and the other half have it =0.1, amongs many many more discrepancies.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#6 - 2013-10-12 08:15:01 UTC
Shirley Serious
Gutter Press
#7 - 2013-10-12 08:38:42 UTC
Blueprints start out by consuming more materials than make up the item.
Production efficiency is how much material beyond what is mentioned in the blueprint is consumed manufacturing the item.

Best illustrated with an example.

An item consists of 1000 tritanium.

The blueprint for that item, starts at consuming 1100 tritanium. (10% waste is normal for a blueprint with material level 0)

Manufacturing from that blueprint would start at 1375 tritanium, with production efficiency 0. (1100 +25%)
At production efficiency V, manufacturing would consume 1100 tritanium.

Researching the blueprint a bit, takes it down to 1080 tritanium.

Manufacturing that item now, would cost 1350 tritanium at production efficiency 0, or 1080 at production efficiency V.

does this help ?

Just the facts.

Velicitia
XS Tech
#8 - 2013-10-12 11:41:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Shirley Serious wrote:
Blueprints start out by consuming more materials than make up the item.
Production efficiency is how much material beyond what is mentioned in the blueprint is consumed manufacturing the item.

Best illustrated with an example.

An item consists of 1000 tritanium.

The blueprint for that item, starts at consuming 1100 tritanium. (10% waste is normal for a blueprint with material level 0)

Manufacturing from that blueprint would start at 1375 tritanium, with production efficiency 0. (1100 +25%)
At production efficiency V, manufacturing would consume 1100 tritanium.

Researching the blueprint a bit, takes it down to 1080 tritanium.

Manufacturing that item now, would cost 1350 tritanium at production efficiency 0, or 1080 at production efficiency V.

does this help ?


This is pretty much it.

Or another way:
BPO research is essentially refining the design ("if we make the mold this way, less parts come out wrong") so that it inherently takes less material.

Production Efficiency fixes the fat fingering of the idiot putting it together.


Think of it like building a model car.

The manufacturer has refined their molds to the point where the separation flashing is minimal (BPO research)

For a less-skilled kit (PE 0), they might include 6 pulleys on the sprue because they figure the builder will lose one or two.
For a high-skill kit (PE 5), they might only include 4 pulleys (because that's all you need).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#9 - 2013-10-12 12:32:59 UTC
Science and Industry is else where on the Forum.

I'm just sayin'.

Your gonna wanna do all this ticky manufacturing stuff and you can't even post in the right Forum ?

Good luck...................

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-10-12 12:56:40 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Science and Industry is else where on the Forum.

I'm just sayin'.

Your gonna wanna do all this ticky manufacturing stuff and you can't even post in the right Forum ?

Good luck...................


To be fair to the OP, most other forums don't give a response for about two weeks.

Dodixie > Hek

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#11 - 2013-10-12 13:27:41 UTC
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/

The no waste numbers aren't available from the game directly. We pull them from the static data extract that CCP make available.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Karrin Rawlter
The Darieux Society
#12 - 2013-10-17 04:23:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrin Rawlter
Shirley Serious wrote:
Blueprints start out by consuming more materials than make up the item.
Production efficiency is how much material beyond what is mentioned in the blueprint is consumed manufacturing the item.

Best illustrated with an example.

An item consists of 1000 tritanium.

The blueprint for that item, starts at consuming 1100 tritanium. (10% waste is normal for a blueprint with material level 0)

Manufacturing from that blueprint would start at 1375 tritanium, with production efficiency 0. (1100 +25%)
At production efficiency V, manufacturing would consume 1100 tritanium.

Researching the blueprint a bit, takes it down to 1080 tritanium.

Manufacturing that item now, would cost 1350 tritanium at production efficiency 0, or 1080 at production efficiency V.

does this help ?


No.

According to the numbers for a 0 ML Gallente Shuttle blueprint from Chruker you are wrong.
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=11130

According to chruker.dk, the formula for an unresearched blueprint made by a 0 PE player is NOT your suggestion of Base*1.10*1.25=Total, but is actually
(Base) + (0.1*Base) + (0.25*Base) = Total

Which completely goes against the intuitive meaning of waste, the description of the Production efficiency skill, and the information provided on Evelopedia.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#13 - 2013-10-17 16:31:06 UTC
Karrin Rawlter wrote:
(stuff)


Gave you a long explanation in the other thread. Hopefully it helps you out.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#14 - 2013-10-17 17:18:17 UTC
Production Efficiency, at this point in EVE's development, is now largely just a timesink anyway.

With so many competitors out there, with well-researched blueprints, then having anything less than PE V is a significant disadvantage.

Some people go as far as saying anyone building anything without PE V is either a rookie or an idiot.
(you build things in one of the tutorial missions)

So, if the description is wrong or confusing, then... does it really matter ?

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.