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BIG issue with Bastion

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Janet Clover
CrashCat Corporation
#21 - 2013-10-11 23:07:29 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Atossa Exior wrote:
Remember, when you log in space, DC or otherwise, the game does one e-warp and does not re-cycle any active mods.

If you're in a bubble/pointed or siege/triage/bastion the e-warp wont work so you will sit there until the log off timer is over then you will disappear, assuming you live long enough.



And that is the problem...
If you're in pvp and someone has you locked down... you're screwed.. that is fair and as intended.

When you're triaged/sieged you're in a ship that has a massive amount of HP.


In a bastioned Marauder, you rely heavily upon active tank due to extremely low HP.
This is why I think bastion should drop and you e-warp, unless you're in pvp and locked down...


and i say NO because it is easy abused to avoid PVP. it is simple and crystal clear bastion mode has its ups and downs cant handle with being stuck for X time dont use the module.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#22 - 2013-10-12 00:51:23 UTC
Janet Clover wrote:


and i say NO because it is easy abused to avoid PVP. it is simple and crystal clear bastion mode has its ups and downs cant handle with being stuck for X time dont use the module.

The issue is this is not a 'down'.
It's a suicide pact. The NPC rats alone will kill you since you will never disappear due to PvE timer.
It also can't be used to avoid PvP like you are claiming. Because the PvE timer will keep you in space at the other end of the Ewarp. So they can probe you down just like they could have before and quite happily kill you.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-10-12 01:47:53 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Janet Clover wrote:


and i say NO because it is easy abused to avoid PVP. it is simple and crystal clear bastion mode has its ups and downs cant handle with being stuck for X time dont use the module.

The issue is this is not a 'down'.
It's a suicide pact. The NPC rats alone will kill you since you will never disappear due to PvE timer.
It also can't be used to avoid PvP like you are claiming. Because the PvE timer will keep you in space at the other end of the Ewarp. So they can probe you down just like they could have before and quite happily kill you.


this
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-10-12 02:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
No. You should not be able to save a dead ship just because you pull out your network cable.

Disconnections are a fact of life, learn to live with it. A logistic in a chain disconnects, an incursion group wipes. An FC disconnects, an entire fleet can wipe. None of these deserve any more or any less protection than your solo PvEboat.

Never fly what you can't afford to lose and all that.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#25 - 2013-10-12 03:08:21 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
No. You should not be able to save a dead ship just because you pull out your network cable.

Disconnections are a fact of life, learn to live with it. A logistic in a chain disconnects, an incursion group wipes. An FC disconnects, an entire fleet can wipe. None of these deserve any more or any less protection than your solo PvEboat.

Never fly what you can't afford to lose and all that.


Except a logi in a chain disconnects, an incursion group doesn't actually wipe.
An FC disconnects, the fleet doesn't wipe.
Both of these are down to the behaviour of the remaining people on grid. And in both of these, your ship warps off grid unless pointed.
In the case of a Marauder. Because all active mods stop, you die before you can reconnect against straight NPC rats. This is not going to escape PvP, this is not going to magically get you off grid when scrammed. But, this will get you off grid when not scrammed, same as every other ratting ship.
Otherwise this will be a very expensive time consuming effort by CCP that will actually make Marauders used LESS than currently.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-10-12 03:15:05 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
No. You should not be able to save a dead ship just because you pull out your network cable.

Disconnections are a fact of life, learn to live with it. A logistic in a chain disconnects, an incursion group wipes. An FC disconnects, an entire fleet can wipe. None of these deserve any more or any less protection than your solo PvEboat.

Never fly what you can't afford to lose and all that.


Except a logi in a chain disconnects, an incursion group doesn't actually wipe.
An FC disconnects, the fleet doesn't wipe.
Both of these are down to the behaviour of the remaining people on grid. And in both of these, your ship warps off grid unless pointed.
In the case of a Marauder. Because all active mods stop, you die before you can reconnect against straight NPC rats. This is not going to escape PvP, this is not going to magically get you off grid when scrammed. But, this will get you off grid when not scrammed, same as every other ratting ship.
Otherwise this will be a very expensive time consuming effort by CCP that will actually make Marauders used LESS than currently.


This exactly...

You can't compare them to a dread or carrier in siege/triage either.
There's a massive HP buffer on those ships that Marauders don't have, and are even getting less of with bastion.

Any other ship in game e-warps when not tackled.
When it a fleet, it is up to the fleet to compensate.

This is why a lot of incursion fleets use a 3 logi transfer, so if one cuts out, the other two can remain up.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-10-12 03:18:44 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
When it a fleet, it is up to the fleet to compensate.

This is why a lot of incursion fleets use a 3 logi transfer, so if one cuts out, the other two can remain up.

Exactly. Players take measures to mitigate the effects of disconnections. Nobody asks CCP to change game mechanics.

If disconnects are a problem for you, fly a ship that can handle them.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-10-12 03:26:46 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
When it a fleet, it is up to the fleet to compensate.

This is why a lot of incursion fleets use a 3 logi transfer, so if one cuts out, the other two can remain up.

Exactly. Players take measures to mitigate the effects of disconnections. Nobody asks CCP to change game mechanics.

If disconnects are a problem for you, fly a ship that can handle them.


wtf are you talking about?


This is no different than saying CCP should never have created e-warp in the first place.
It's there to help the players and in no way effects the actual game because there are measures in place to keep it from doing so.


In pve, you e-warp reguardless... All it takes is the amount of time to hit warp speed.
In pvp, you e-warp if you're not scrambled...

There are also timers to where if you do manage to get away with DC in pvp, then they have plenty of time to track your ship down in space and blast it.


What you are basically saying about bastion e-warp is no different than saying they might as well just remove e-warp.

I mean, if they're not going to allow an e-warp mechanic on a ship that direly needs it cause of extremely low EHP for such a large class ship, then we might as well remove e-warp as a whole.

If you think this is a good idea, well then, lets do it and see how long Eve lasts after that....
Gonna be a whole lot of rage quiting and it's not gonna be just carebears..
Janet Clover
CrashCat Corporation
#29 - 2013-10-12 11:40:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Janet Clover wrote:


and i say NO because it is easy abused to avoid PVP. it is simple and crystal clear bastion mode has its ups and downs cant handle with being stuck for X time dont use the module.

The issue is this is not a 'down'.
It's a suicide pact. The NPC rats alone will kill you since you will never disappear due to PvE timer.
It also can't be used to avoid PvP like you are claiming. Because the PvE timer will keep you in space at the other end of the Ewarp. So they can probe you down just like they could have before and quite happily kill you.


dont lie... if i have a wardeck and i am in a marauder doing a mission and i see wartarget entering system i can "DC" and my ship will be gone before he probes me warps to me and point me. but if i was stuck because of the bastion mode i would be dead. same goes for sites in 0.0 when a neutral/red is close

i also wanna bring up that this also goes for carriers/supers in triage, and for dreads in siege a rorqual in deployment mode and every ship that lights a cyno. give me 1 good reason why bastion mode should be an exception because i havent read one
Janet Clover
CrashCat Corporation
#30 - 2013-10-12 11:45:11 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
No. You should not be able to save a dead ship just because you pull out your network cable.

Disconnections are a fact of life, learn to live with it. A logistic in a chain disconnects, an incursion group wipes. An FC disconnects, an entire fleet can wipe. None of these deserve any more or any less protection than your solo PvEboat.

Never fly what you can't afford to lose and all that.


Except a logi in a chain disconnects, an incursion group doesn't actually wipe.
An FC disconnects, the fleet doesn't wipe.
Both of these are down to the behaviour of the remaining people on grid. And in both of these, your ship warps off grid unless pointed.
In the case of a Marauder. Because all active mods stop, you die before you can reconnect against straight NPC rats. This is not going to escape PvP, this is not going to magically get you off grid when scrammed. But, this will get you off grid when not scrammed, same as every other ratting ship.
Otherwise this will be a very expensive time consuming effort by CCP that will actually make Marauders used LESS than currently.


This exactly...

You can't compare them to a dread or carrier in siege/triage either.
There's a massive HP buffer on those ships that Marauders don't have, and are even getting less of with bastion.

Any other ship in game e-warps when not tackled.
When it a fleet, it is up to the fleet to compensate.

This is why a lot of incursion fleets use a 3 logi transfer, so if one cuts out, the other two can remain up.


it doesn't matter what the stats of the ship are its the total picture if you don't wanna risk being stuck for X time you should not use it. there is absolutely no reason why this should be different. that the ship has smalller tank/buffer then a capital is common sense.
Janet Clover
CrashCat Corporation
#31 - 2013-10-12 13:54:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Janet Clover
Joe Risalo wrote:
Atossa Exior wrote:
Remember, when you log in space, DC or otherwise, the game does one e-warp and does not re-cycle any active mods.

If you're in a bubble/pointed or siege/triage/bastion the e-warp wont work so you will sit there until the log off timer is over then you will disappear, assuming you live long enough.


Quote:

And that is the problem...
If you're in pvp and someone has you locked down... you're screwed.. that is fair and as intended.

if the bastion effect is ignored for safe warp at DC as you want it, it can be abused to escape from a CERTAIN PVP experience BEFORE they can point/agress you. Where you SURELY would die. how hard is that to understand?
Quote:

When you're triaged/sieged you're in a ship that has a massive amount of HP.

totally irrelevant and beside is the ISK ratio completely out of whack
[quote]
In a bastioned Marauder, you rely heavily upon active tank due to extremely low HP.
This is why I think bastion should drop and you e-warp, unless you're in pvp and locked down...


you want that because you don't like the downside of bastion, i can understand that but that doesn't make it ok
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-10-12 14:27:34 UTC
Janet Clover wrote:

if the bastion effect is ignored for safe warp at DC as you want it, it can be abused to escape from a CERTAIN PVP experience BEFORE they can point/agress you. Where you SURELY would die. how hard is that to understand?

How is that any different from every other ship in the game?
What you're saying is not different than saying no ship should be able to e-warp.
Just cause you're in a Marauder as opposed to a pirate bs doesn't mean you deserve to die more than you would in a different ship.
Quote:

totally irrelevant and beside is the ISK ratio completely out of whack

What are you talking about?
A Marauder costs as much as a Carrier.
Quote:

you want that because you don't like the downside of bastion, i can understand that but that doesn't make it ok


The downside of bastion is immobility while in combat.
The downside of bastion is 60 sec lock.
The downside of bastion is less pvp effectiveness.

This is not a downside, it's a mechanic working as intended that is broken on this specific ship.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-10-12 14:48:01 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Just cause you're in a Marauder as opposed to a pirate bs doesn't mean you deserve to die more than you would in a different ship.

It also doesn't mean you deserve to die less.
Janet Clover
CrashCat Corporation
#34 - 2013-10-12 14:49:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Janet Clover
Joe Risalo wrote:
Janet Clover wrote:

if the bastion effect is ignored for safe warp at DC as you want it, it can be abused to escape from a CERTAIN PVP experience BEFORE they can point/agress you. Where you SURELY would die. how hard is that to understand?

How is that any different from every other ship in the game?
What you're saying is not different than saying no ship should be able to e-warp.
Just cause you're in a Marauder as opposed to a pirate bs doesn't mean you deserve to die more than you would in a different ship.

are you realy THAT dumb? EVERY ship will safe e-warp with the exception of a few that are in special mode that gives high advantages but as downside IMMOBILIZE your ship to move therefor you cant do a safe e-warp
Quote:

totally irrelevant and beside is the ISK ratio completely out of whack

Quote:

What are you talking about?
A Marauder costs as much as a Carrier.

but not so much as a dread or super or a rorqual for that matter
Quote:

you want that because you don't like the downside of bastion, i can understand that but that doesn't make it ok


The downside of bastion is immobility while in combat.
The downside of bastion is 60 sec lock.
The downside of bastion is less pvp effectiveness.

This is not a downside, it's a mechanic working as intended that is broken on this specific ship.[/quote]

no its not you want all the benefits but none of the downsides that is not how life works
Janet Clover
CrashCat Corporation
#35 - 2013-10-12 14:55:53 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Just cause you're in a Marauder as opposed to a pirate bs doesn't mean you deserve to die more than you would in a different ship.

It also doesn't mean you deserve to die less.


OMG

i agree with a FA member
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-10-12 16:07:01 UTC
Permarun Tank: you will survive a disconnect.
Not-Permarun tank: you may survive a disconnect. Or not.

That is really nothing new.
Janet Clover
CrashCat Corporation
#37 - 2013-10-12 18:01:36 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

The downside of bastion is immobility while in combat.


where is it stated that the immobility is only while in combat? WHERE does it say that ? HINT your thoughts do NOT count!
Quote:

The downside of bastion is 60 sec lock.
The downside of bastion is less pvp effectiveness.

This is not a downside, it's a mechanic working as intended that is broken on this specific ship.


what part of immobilized is it that you don't understand? its the biggest downside from modules like siege, triage and bastion but never the less its there.

conclusion marauder works as intended but you cant live with it too bad train for another ship is my advice
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-10-12 18:42:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Janet Clover wrote:
conclusion marauder works as intended but you cant live with it too bad train for another ship is my advice

OMG

I agree with a NPC alt.

(Who for some reason thinks I'm in FA?)
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2013-10-12 18:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mioelnir
Janet Clover wrote:
what part of immobilized is it that you don't understand?

Immobilization is irrelevant.

You do not die from a disconnect because you were sieged, bastioned or lit a frickin' cyno. You die because you bloody disconnected and lost control of your ship.

Do immobilization modules amplify your risks? Yes. But they do not cause them. And compared to recent changes that allow you to receive new timers after disconnect, the amplification is minute.

In PVE scenarios, you can prepare for that by using a fitting that is as effective as can be while you are disconnected, or you take it on the chin and fit your ship to work while you are connected.
In PVP, you bring friends that babysit your ship and yell at you afterwards. Or you do not and die.

The root cause brought up by the OP is working as intended.
The discussion revolves about symptoms and is therefor irrelevant.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#40 - 2013-10-13 12:35:14 UTC
ima use this topic for a real bastion bug report
when you shitch bastion on/off the allready fired/ flying missle salvo will do no damage same happens when you use the mjd and the missles are flying