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New dev blog: Anomalies revisited

First post First post
Author
Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
#81 - 2011-11-16 18:32:50 UTC
BigCountry wrote:

So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK


My response was pointing out that your whining about things being harder in Drone Land is silly given the disproportionate amount guaranteed ISK you pull out of drone anoms. So what if they're harder... you'll still run them and still make bank on them.

The guys in Pirate rat space are beholden to the random number generator and have to wade through lots of competition to make their big ISK... you Drone guys, sitting in your numerous and heavily upgraded systems, which in some areas have a higher station density than some parts of lowsec, not even nearly as much.

All I see are the JFs coming back to empire loaded with 2-4bn ISK in drone leavings every 2-3 days, multiple times per week. I can only imagine that's just a portion of what is pulled out of all the hordes and other anoms the collective "you" run.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2011-11-16 18:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Also, a couple of things I'm expecting people to ask about that I want to clear up in advance:


First, this blog was entirely my idea; the original implementation was badly designed and I have no problem admitting that. We make mistakes, we learn from them, and we do things better next time around.

Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)
Let's talk about this.

First: The anomaly change from earlier in the year was made with little or no communication at FanFest which immediately preceded the change. People, rightly, felt like you purposefully hid this change so that there was no opportunity to provide legitimate feedback (more likely an uprising and riot in Iceland).

Second: With only two weeks notice, the change negated billions in ISK invested into Outposts, IHubs, System Upgrades, etc. After 15 months of Dominion mechanics, you opted to give people very short notice that their investments were ****. While I understand that CCP considers that ISK as money in the bank (ISK sunk into the game and forever removed from player use), you managed to make *many* customers angry at your company. Pure speculation on my part, but this may not have been helpful when IncarnaGate rolled around a few months later.

Third: You gave purely speculative reasons for the change with zero follow-through. Ignoring a problem does not make it go away. If you truly believed in the stated reasons for the change, then provide data that either support or disprove the rationale behind the changes.

Fourth: There is no indication that you learned from your mistakes. 'Stuff was out of my control' isn't good enough. If Hilmar pipes up and states that we put Greyscale into a bad position and would not allow him to properly do his job, then that is another thing altogether.

Fifth: That you did not (and still do not?) see the significance and impact of those March '11 changes on smaller entities is why you still have much to learn. Take a real life, hypothetical scenario for example where a person moves house and country to take a new job in an expensive new locale. Housing is expensive. Education is expensive, etc., but the compensation plan is good and the work outlook looks good'n'steady. Then think about the impact on that person and their family when the new employer says a month or so into the engagement: "You have two weeks and then you are without a job with only a meager severance," resulting in a drastic income change for the family. THIS is what the March '11 change did for many small-to-medium sized entities. It was as "****" move that was completely arbitrary and severely impacted customer good-will towards CCP. That you did not understand the change is indicative that you are out-of-touch with your customers.

How have you changed? And how are you held accountable?

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#83 - 2011-11-16 18:36:49 UTC
I don't get why people are so Sanctum focused aka distrubution focused. Depending on your skills and race preference the different lower end anoms can provide the same ISK/h than Sanctums or even more. It doesn't really matter: it is still 120+ mil/h when you know what you do. Obviously a 6 month old renter in a Drake won't make that and they should not.

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW

Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2011-11-16 19:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Dalilus
So let me get this right:

- one cannot mine belts in high sec because of detroyer ganks
- one cannot use any industrial ship in high sec during Hulkageddon (or however it is spelled) because they get popped
- one cannot mine ice in high sec because of ganks
- one cannot take too long finishing a lvl 4 mish in high sec because of ninja looters
- one cannot take one's eye off the screen for a minute in high sec incursions because of griefers and gankers
- one cannot fly a marauder in high sec because of ganks
- one cannot fly a pimped up battleship in high sec because of griefers and ganks
- one cannot fly caps or supercaps in high sec because they are only allowed in low, null and wormhole space
- one cannot fly a freighter or industrial on autopilot from one corner of high sec EVE to another because of gate camps
- one cannot set up a pos in highsec because of wardecs

...and to top it off the very best content is in nullsec where high sec carebears have no interest in playing eventhough there are more carebears with a gazillion skillpoints than pvpers. Now CCP is buffing EVEN MORE those sections of EVE where carebears do not fly.

CCP please tell me why I should spend my hard earned money playing your game when my playstyle, high sec carebear, obviously is not to your liking?
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2011-11-16 19:05:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
The changes are welcome, but the most important line in the blog is "We are however actively planning on revisiting the situation in a few months to make sure we've hit the mark properly this time."

I'm sure everyone is happy that the renewed focus on EVE and FiS provides more resources for such rapid iteration.
The proof is in the execution.

So many times has CCP stated that features will be reviewed and revisited (iterated?) that any such statement can only be viewed with skepticism and, at times, contempt.

CCP Greyscale, unless there is additional information indicating otherwise, was the prime public-facing actor in one of the more recent egregious examples of 'CCP dropping the ball' with its customers.

His word means nothing until his actions prove otherwise.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

MidnightWyvern
The Bosena Accords
Round Table Assembly
#86 - 2011-11-16 19:06:28 UTC
BigCountry wrote:
Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ...
So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK..


loldronespace

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)

Spitfork
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2011-11-16 19:18:05 UTC
Dalilus wrote:
So let me get this right:

- one cannot mine belts in high sec because of detroyer ganks
- one cannot use any industrial ship in high sec during Hulkageddon (or however it is spelled) because they get popped
- one cannot mine ice in high sec because of ganks
- one cannot take too long finishing a lvl 4 mish in high sec because of ninja looters
- one cannot take one's eye off the screen for a minute in high sec incursions because of griefers and gankers
- one cannot fly a marauder in high sec because of ganks
- one cannot fly a pimped up battleship in high sec because of griefers and ganks
- one cannot fly caps or supercaps in high sec because they are only allowed in low, null and wormhole space
- one cannot fly a freighter or industrial on autopilot from one corner of high sec EVE to another because of gate camps
- one cannot set up a pos in highsec because of wardecs

...and to top it off the very best content is in nullsec where high sec carebears have no interest in playing eventhough there are more carebears with a gazillion skillpoints than pvpers. Now CCP is buffing EVEN MORE those sections of EVE where carebears do not fly.

CCP please tell me why I should spend my hard earned money playing your game when my playstyle, high sec carebear, obviously is not to your liking?

bear tears best tears!

This sounds like you want to play the game mostly afk and let the isk flow in. Why?
You should check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD69PAIqiYo
The Offerer
Doomheim
#88 - 2011-11-16 19:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: The Offerer
Sadly, I think that this change came a bit too late. A lot of political and demographic changes happened in the game since the nerf that simply nullified this fix.

- Many players left to highsec because of the nerf. DED complexes were too infrequent and often bugged so they mainly got done shortly after downtime and didn't re-spawn until the next downtime. If you are working well after the downtime and have time to log on a couple of hours after it, you won't have a chance to find a valuable complex to do (speaking from personal and experience of all my corp mates). The only thing that provided some sort of income were removed, not nerfed.

Result: many of those players are in highsec doing missions. I don't have to be a market expert to see that ISK per LP ratio has dropped considerably after the nerf. It would require much more than a fix to anomalies to get those players back, because one by one they are leaving the game (taking a "break" never to be heard from again) after being bored in highsec. There are other things that influence this unwillingness to get back to 0.0 and those things must be fixed if we want to kep the players in the game.

- Many players (a half of my crew back before the nerf) simply disappeared from the game never to come back. I haven't been able to talk them into re-subbing again. They are simply disappointed for instantly losing everything that we invested in. It's too late to get those players back.

- Since 0.0 industry is still non-existent on a personal level and you still don't have a chance to do anything industry related whatsoever without messing with the corporate bureaucracy, the single most viable ISK income for a 0.0 player were anomalies. We needed that ISK in order to PvP. It's a 0.0 space... a free-for-all PvP zone... and we got kicked out of the game by not having enough ISK to play.

In the mean time, one block of players formed a single fleet of overpowered and unbalanced ships and took multiple regions of space. Any attempt to attack their systems will result in the same response as we've seen before. I used to roam through those regions before the conquest - lots of players, lots of activity, lots of targets. Now? Those systems were taken because of a single (also unbalanced) moon resource and left empty. Whole regions of space became ghost towns.

And who is willing to fight them? Well, no one at this moment. There's no reason why should anyone want to dedicate their time, resources and morale to try to fight that monster for a pitty increase in anomaly values.
- Not when you can't even pick up a fight against 200-strong supercarriers + titans
- Not when server behavior is still unpredictable since we don't yet have time dilation on TQ
- Not when industry in 0.0 space is still neglected and practically don't exist outside of corporate bureaucracy (and judging by the Customs office devblog, that isn't going to change any time soon)



There is still hope, however, and this should be only the first step of getting players back into the most interesting part of the game and the game itself:
- Supercapital nerf must actually work. Without that nerf, there is no fight.
- Time dilation must actually work. Without it, there's no fun or possibility of winning because of something that your fleet did.
- Industry must be redone to be available to the masses in 0.0 space. This idea, for example, tacles that problem quite effectively: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1560795&page=9#258

Without those things and without player's will or possibility to fight for 0.0 space, this anomaly buff will only serve those who are already established in 0.0 space:
- invulnerable blobs with strong supercapital core
- bots that are still very active in all regions of space including 0.0
and we all know that both of those things not good for player morale.




TL;DR

It's a step forward that is made a little too late to be effective and productive by itself. Many things have happened in the game because of the nerf that drastically changed the landscape of the whole game. Many players left right away and many are still leaving nullsec and the game because of the lack of achievable goals, because the balance of the game got heavily broken. In order to have hope and goals again and keep players in the game, anomalies had to be fixed, supercapitals must be nerfed properly, time dilation and server load balancing better work, and corporate monopoly over industry in nullsec must be minimized. Only then you will completely fix what got broken with the nerf. Without all those elements, the impact on the playerbase might be completely opposite of what you are expecting.
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#89 - 2011-11-16 19:22:43 UTC
Meh...

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders
#90 - 2011-11-16 19:23:06 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Also, a couple of things I'm expecting people to ask about that I want to clear up in advance:

First, this blog was entirely my idea; the original implementation was badly designed and I have no problem admitting that. We make mistakes, we learn from them, and we do things better next time around.

Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)


How to prove you are sorry and will do better: 1) Admit your mistake. 2) Take steps to correct the mistake. 3) Take steps to avoid making the same mistake again.

Time will always tell for number 3 (though it looks promising right now) but you have 1 and 2 covered so far.

I can feel the pain of negative feed back, I work in IT, 5 of us in department doing service for about 200 people or so in 4 different locations (soon to add a 5th with another 20 people). Everyone only sees their own point of view oh so often that it becomes tough to make a decision that most people can accept.

I think you have formulated a plan of action that will generate some (maybe lots of) positive results. Keep up the work.
(Yeah, almost zero constructive feedback, just being a pep rally leader here...)

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.

Dziu
Doomheim
#91 - 2011-11-16 19:23:50 UTC
They're nerfing Drone Hordes, so it's even MORE difficult to make isk in droneregions. By the way, not a single word about it in devblog. "We boost everything". Yeah, right...
Jojo Yohan
Boa Innovations
Brothers of Tangra
#92 - 2011-11-16 19:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Yohan
Tarsas Phage wrote:
BigCountry wrote:

So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK


My response was pointing out that your whining about things being harder in Drone Land is silly given the disproportionate amount guaranteed ISK you pull out of drone anoms. So what if they're harder... you'll still run them and still make bank on them.


First off: Guaranteed isk would be bounties which is not what the drone regions provide. There is still risk in transporting and storing alloys, especially when you are multiple jumps away from an outpost.

Secondly: They are not harder, they just take longer since you have to wait for every last frigate drone to die before going onto the next spawn. I would actually prefer if they were harder and provided more isk with more risk.

Third: They are saying, "More money! More loot!" But in actuality it will be more time, same reward. -> Less isk/hour.

If they truly are trying to increase ISK/hour or ISK/EHP than this change does the opposite of what they are intending.
Alexander Oromov
Black Eagles.
#93 - 2011-11-16 19:43:37 UTC
Holy crap CCP, you guys are kicking arse and taking names
Dark Tobby
Doomheim
#94 - 2011-11-16 19:44:23 UTC
Dalilus wrote:
So let me get this right:

- one cannot mine belts in high sec because of detroyer ganks
- one cannot use any industrial ship in high sec during Hulkageddon (or however it is spelled) because they get popped
- one cannot mine ice in high sec because of ganks
- one cannot take too long finishing a lvl 4 mish in high sec because of ninja looters
- one cannot take one's eye off the screen for a minute in high sec incursions because of griefers and gankers
- one cannot fly a marauder in high sec because of ganks
- one cannot fly a pimped up battleship in high sec because of griefers and ganks
- one cannot fly caps or supercaps in high sec because they are only allowed in low, null and wormhole space
- one cannot fly a freighter or industrial on autopilot from one corner of high sec EVE to another because of gate camps
- one cannot set up a pos in highsec because of wardecs

...and to top it off the very best content is in nullsec where high sec carebears have no interest in playing eventhough there are more carebears with a gazillion skillpoints than pvpers. Now CCP is buffing EVEN MORE those sections of EVE where carebears do not fly.

CCP please tell me why I should spend my hard earned money playing your game when my playstyle, high sec carebear, obviously is not to your liking?


I would say the exact opposite of what you are saying being a 0.0 citizen.

Why should carebears have the best ISK per hour(incursion) that is LOW RISK when we the 0.0 who fight for our space only get sanctums worth after buff 75% per hour with HIGH risk or getting ganked?

RaZor Flash
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2011-11-16 20:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: RaZor Flash
I applaud you CCP for making the effort to make isk better in 0.0

With these changes I will effectively make less isk/hour, a lot less.

Please, I beg you comprehend the changes that you are doing because this is very, very bad. I am appalled that you don't grasp how some of us making our isk/hour.

Who do I need to get in contact with to just explain how terrible these changes really are?

Is this a joke? This is MUCH worse... Wow. I can't believe it.

Edit:

For those that dont understand.

All CCP did was add more ships to the anomalies, effectively making them harder, so you can't solo them as easily as you could.

1. With the perma neuting battleships, you have to shoot them from range causing less damage.
2. You need a better tank, less damage.

Less damage = killing a lot slower = worse isk/hour. This is *very* bad.
RaZor Flash
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2011-11-16 20:26:47 UTC
edit : double post
EC Tolowim
EVE Casino Corp
#97 - 2011-11-16 20:35:44 UTC
Jojo Yohan wrote:
Tarsas Phage wrote:
BigCountry wrote:

So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK


My response was pointing out that your whining about things being harder in Drone Land is silly given the disproportionate amount guaranteed ISK you pull out of drone anoms. So what if they're harder... you'll still run them and still make bank on them.


First off: Guaranteed isk would be bounties which is not what the drone regions provide. There is still risk in transporting and storing alloys, especially when you are multiple jumps away from an outpost.

Secondly: They are not harder, they just take longer since you have to wait for every last frigate drone to die before going onto the next spawn. I would actually prefer if they were harder and provided more isk with more risk.

Third: They are saying, "More money! More loot!" But in actuality it will be more time, same reward. -> Less isk/hour.

If they truly are trying to increase ISK/hour or ISK/EHP than this change does the opposite of what they are intending.


I agree, believe it or not, getting the alloys to a safe place is more difficult then people think when you are transporting it from bumville to high sec. IMO drones should remain the same. They are within proportions when looking at the issue from an economical and transportation standpoint.
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
#98 - 2011-11-16 20:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zendoren
BigCountry wrote:
Tarsas Phage wrote:
BigCountry wrote:
Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ...
So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK..


Oh cry me a river. Just how many billions in Plush Compound and other crap does your alliance/blues collectively pull out of the Drone Regions on a weekly basis?

I've been having a ball the past few months taking a close look at what leftovers you haul back to empire, and I swear, compared to the personal income abilities of other 0.0 alliances, you guys have absolutely no room to talk.

If you live in the Drone Regions and have a hard time making ISK by the bucketload, the problem is not CCP, the problem is YOU.

/T




LOL if i read correctly the OP by greyscale they found that sanctums were the best anomolies on TQ ... those arent in the droneregions ... and how much do yall make off of raw bounties and mod drops PLUS faction loot .....

So back to my original post these changes didnt make drone regions anoms more profitable , just more work for the same ISK


You people over in the drone regions have enough money as it is. Your Super Cap hordes are proof of that!

So no buff for you.

Edit: BTW, this is the answer for both low-sec and null-sec risk reward curve

Once implemented, all CCP needs to do is keep drops and bounties in line with the the type of space they spawn in. Lower the sec status of space the better and more frequent the spawns. Fixed

in 0.0 use Ihub to augment the purposed sec system.
in low-sec, they do not have Ihubs so reward will be caped! (so to say)

The question is what player actions do we use to manipulate the tru sec with??
Also, does space slowly regain sec status if no player action is done within a system?

❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?

Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2011-11-16 20:59:56 UTC
Zendoren wrote:


You people over in the drone regions have enough money as it is. Your Super Cap hordes are proof of that!

So no buff for you.

Edit: BTW, this is the answer for both low-sec and null-sec risk reward curve

Once implemented, all CCP needs to do is keep drops and bounties in line with the the type of space they spawn in. Lower the sec status of space the better and more frequent the spawns. Fixed

in 0.0 use Ihub to augment the purposed sec system.
in low-sec, they do not have Ihubs so reward will be caped! (so to say)

The question is what player actions do we use to manipulate the tru sec with??
Also, does space slowly regain sec status if no player action is done within a system?


Just because you say its a good idea doesn't mean it is...
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2011-11-16 21:07:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Charles Edisson
OK well I aplaud the desired goal but you've cocked up some of the sights just slightly.

If your goal was to increase the isk/hour of sites you should not have made them soo much harder/slower to complete that we will now actually be making less isk per hour.

Nice attempt but the current Sisi anoms are a total screw up.



And while you're working on fixing/the distribution of isk are you ever going to fix the biggest financial mistake you made in the game when you made Technetium the moon material that is in shortest supply.

Not that CCP will like the outcome of that briliant idea but you made a small number of people wery wealthy in the real world.