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Afterburner to 5? Confused...

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Daler Farmon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-10-03 04:12:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Daler Farmon
Hi,

I was reading forums about Afterburner skill, that it doesnt worth to be trained to 5 cuz it will take too much of cap. But there are one more skill which will reduce the cap need for Afterburners, I think it's Fuel Conservation (not really sure). So, what do u think guys? I think most of forums posts were from 2012, so probably something has changed untill now, it would be great if you will make some comments on this. ATM my Afterburner skill is at lvl3 and I am thinking to get t2 Afterburner..

Thanks
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2013-10-03 04:39:02 UTC
Something has changed, and the issue wasn't with cap. Under the old system, the afterburner just stayed on longer, which was a disadvantage if you needed to turn it off to gain agility. Now, the duration and cap both go down and there's no disadvantage to taking it to 5.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2013-10-03 05:57:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
The Afterburner skill was changed in the Retribution expansion.

1 / (1 - 5% activation reduction) = 1.0526 or 5.26% more capacitor usage, but the skill also gives a 10% capacitor use reduction, so you actually get a 4.74% capacitor use reduction.

So training it to 5 is fine now. All my characters that use an AB regularly have it trained to 5 as it is a fast to train rank 1 skill.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-10-03 06:25:40 UTC
If your AB's cap use is of concern to you, youre probably doing something wrong since it uses very very little.
that said, training AB 5 is almost completely pointless.

There is no Bob.

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Daler Farmon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-10-03 06:53:04 UTC
+1 to Tau for detailed answer.

@Jack,
Yeah I do concern about the cap usage, even a little as trying to actively shield tank a ship requires a lot of cap..

Thanks you all for help
Salome Musashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-10-03 07:24:16 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
If your AB's cap use is of concern to you, youre probably doing something wrong since it uses very very little.
that said, training AB 5 is almost completely pointless.


It makes sense for, say, an AB Scimitar or AHAC where you're running the AB all the time and you want every bit of capacitor for reps or guns.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#7 - 2013-10-04 12:58:59 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
If your AB's cap use is of concern to you, youre probably doing something wrong since it uses very very little.
that said, training AB 5 is almost completely pointless.


AB 5 is pretty nice now. I particularly recommend it for PvP if you're going to be fighting in AB ships.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-10-04 18:40:48 UTC
but if you're planning on overheating it, then it builds up heat 33% faster with this skill, as it cycles 33% faster (ie, its cycle time is 25% less 1/.75 = 1.3333)
But... if you consider that before it was a 1.5x cycle time modifier, and now its a 0.75x modifier, it actually burns out twice as fast when overheated...

They should add a 10% heat reduction/level to it as well.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#9 - 2013-10-04 20:34:26 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
but if you're planning on overheating it, then it builds up heat 33% faster with this skill, as it cycles 33% faster (ie, its cycle time is 25% less 1/.75 = 1.3333)
But... if you consider that before it was a 1.5x cycle time modifier, and now its a 0.75x modifier, it actually burns out twice as fast when overheated...

They should add a 10% heat reduction/level to it as well.


It's worth it to snap into warp faster.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Skittles Austrene
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-10-05 22:22:00 UTC
I'm a little confused at the difference between the Afterburner skill and the Fuel Conservation skill. Do they both reduce how much capacitor it takes to fire the burners?
Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
#11 - 2013-10-06 01:19:12 UTC
Skittles Austrene wrote:
I'm a little confused at the difference between the Afterburner skill and the Fuel Conservation skill. Do they both reduce how much capacitor it takes to fire the burners?


Skill description for Afterburner skill:
Skill at using afterburners. 5% reduction to Afterburner duration and 10% reduction in Afterburner capacitor use per skill level.

Skill description for fuel conservation:
Improved control over afterburner energy consumption. 10% reduction in afterburner capacitor needs per skill level.


So, assume your AB has a cycle time of 20s (used for easy math, not pulled from a real AB) and uses 50 cap.

With 0 in each of these skills (not possible to use the AB, but for demonstration) it uses 150 cap per minute

With lvl 5 in afterburner it has a cycle time of 15s, and uses 100 cap per minute (200 cap for 4 cycles a minute, less 50% reduction in cap usage)

With Fuel Conservation 5, but not afterburner 5 it has a cycle time of 20s, and uses 75 cap per minute (again, not possible because you need AB 1 to use the AB).

WIth both to lvl 5....math gets hazy, and I dont know exactly how it works, but my hunch is 15s cycle time with 50-75 cap per minute, depending on how it stacks. I could run some test in EFT, but really don't care enough to.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#12 - 2013-10-06 01:37:25 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
but if you're planning on overheating it, then it builds up heat 33% faster with this skill, as it cycles 33% faster (ie, its cycle time is 25% less 1/.75 = 1.3333)
But... if you consider that before it was a 1.5x cycle time modifier, and now its a 0.75x modifier, it actually burns out twice as fast when overheated...

They should add a 10% heat reduction/level to it as well.

Good point.

One of the few cases where Strategic Cruiser skill beyond 1 is worthwhile.

I think I saw something about overhauling module heating recently too. Don't remember the details though.
Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
#13 - 2013-10-06 15:53:06 UTC
Did some testing regarding my post above, and here is the real life test data:

I have accel control 3 and afterburners 4, so I am getting a 40% reduciton from AB skill and a 30% reduction from accel control.

My 10MN ab I uses 80 kj "stock" without skills. My fitted AB uses 33.6 kj, or a reduction of 58%. This means that AB skill is applied first, then accel control is applied after (80kj * 60% (use after AB skill) = 48 kj * 70% (accel control) = 33.6. Not that it really matters.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-10-06 15:57:38 UTC
Tigerras wrote:
My 10MN ab I uses 80 kj "stock" without skills. My fitted AB uses 33.6 kj, or a reduction of 58%. This means that AB skill is applied first, then accel control is applied after (80kj * 60% (use after AB skill) = 48 kj * 70% (accel control) = 33.6. Not that it really matters.


80 * 70% = 56
56 * 60% = 33.6

As long as both bonuses are multiplicative, and there is no stacking penalty, the order in which they are applied doesn't matter.
Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
#15 - 2013-10-06 16:10:11 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Tigerras wrote:
My 10MN ab I uses 80 kj "stock" without skills. My fitted AB uses 33.6 kj, or a reduction of 58%. This means that AB skill is applied first, then accel control is applied after (80kj * 60% (use after AB skill) = 48 kj * 70% (accel control) = 33.6. Not that it really matters.


80 * 70% = 56
56 * 60% = 33.6

As long as both bonuses are multiplicative, and there is no stacking penalty, the order in which they are applied doesn't matter.


Yeah I figured that out a minute ago when I was thinking about it. Good news is no stacking penalty
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-10-06 16:14:39 UTC
No skills get stacking penalty (as far as I know). Only items do.
Deunan Tenephais
#17 - 2013-10-10 00:02:53 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
1 / (1 - 5% activation reduction) = 1.0526 or 5.26% more capacitor usage, but the skill also gives a 10% capacitor use reduction, so you actually get a 4.74% capacitor use reduction.

But the increased cap use come from cycle time reduction and the decrease in cap use come from directly altering the cost of a cycle, so don't they multiply each other rather than add to each other to find the cap use gain during the exact same time frame ?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#18 - 2013-10-10 05:43:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Deunan Tenephais wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
1 / (1 - 5% activation reduction) = 1.0526 or 5.26% more capacitor usage, but the skill also gives a 10% capacitor use reduction, so you actually get a 4.74% capacitor use reduction.

But the increased cap use come from cycle time reduction and the decrease in cap use come from directly altering the cost of a cycle, so don't they multiply each other rather than add to each other to find the cap use gain during the exact same time frame ?

My math may be off above, but the effect is still an overall capacitor reduction.

Average Capacitor Usage = (Capacitor Usage * (1 - Afterburner Skill * 10%)) / (Cycle Time * (1 - Afterburner Skill * 5%))

Using 1 for the AB unknowns, for simplicity:

Afterburner 0: Average Capacitor Usage = (1 * (1 - 0 * 10%)) / (1 * (1 - 0 * 5%)) = 1
Afterburner 1: Average Capacitor Usage = (1 * (1 - 1 * 10%)) / (1 * (1 - 1 * 5%)) = 0.90 / 0.95 = 0.9473684210526316

That's a 5.26% average capacitor reduction, so more than I originally posted above.

To be pedantic, this isn't exact, as the energy usage will lower the capacitor, and change the recharge rate.