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Rubicon Marauder web changes

Author
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#21 - 2013-10-09 17:09:09 UTC
I know you told me to shut up in the other thread about Marauders and I probably reveal my complete ignorance but I must ask: why do you need to MJD at the same time to the same place? Can't you just jump in more or less same direction when their bastion cycles end?

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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#22 - 2013-10-09 17:26:55 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
I know you told me to shut up in the other thread about Marauders and I probably reveal my complete ignorance but I must ask: why do you need to MJD at the same time to the same place? Can't you just jump in more or less same direction when their bastion cycles end?


I'm going to wager that it has to do with minimizing DPS downtime. If the whole fleet moves together, then theoretically the whole fleet's DPS is re-applied to the rats sooner. What he's missing here is that if everyone starts their bastion cycle at the same time, then it's much easier to call out for the fleet to disable bastion and have it happen at the same time. If the fleet uses Eve Voice or some other VOIP solution, as they should be, it's even easier still.
Darkwolf
#23 - 2013-10-09 22:33:36 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
What he's missing here is that if everyone starts their bastion cycle at the same time, then it's much easier to call out for the fleet to disable bastion and have it happen at the same time. If the fleet uses Eve Voice or some other VOIP solution, as they should be, it's even easier still.


This. It's no more difficult really than coordinating a siege cycle for dreads. The FC really just has to call "bastions red" or "bastions green" as needs dictate. Then you tell everyone to pre-approach something, and it becomes blindingly obvious when everyone's bastion is off - they all spin around and start moving.

Now, with regards to the incursions/solo PVE thing, if CCP has to make Marauders useless for Incursions in order to make them actually worthwhile in general, good riddance. There are already plenty of perfectly viable options for incursion runners in the pirate BS range.

That said, I don't think the loss of the web bonus is that big a deal. Get Vindicators to web for you instead. A 37.5% optimal range bonus on the Paladin is useful in a hell of a lot more roles and synergizes much better with the hull's other bonuses (and the weapon systems for that matter) than a web bonus does.
Darkwolf
#24 - 2013-10-09 22:39:18 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I find it ironic that people scream "IT is an MMO, you should play with others", then when people who fly group PvE, namely Incursion runners, who fly Marauders, it is OK that they take it in the ass with these changes.


I really hate this specious argument. Yes, EVE is an MMO. This does not necessarily mean that everyone should, at all times, be completely dependent on other people to be able to do anything.

Solo play is completely OK if that's what someone wants to do. There is nothing wrong at all with there being a couple of ships out of the giant range of ships we have available to us being better at solo play than group play.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-10-10 18:10:00 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


What you say is my worst fear realized.
I hope that what you say will be proven wrong with massive testing, but I doubt it.

The reason those ship fits were optimised is because Incursions are highly competitive, and the fits/doctrines we used were the best armour doctrine available. Any change to that nerfed ISK / hour.

If what you say is accurate, and before testing confirms it, I believe you, then the Paladin is no longer of any use in Incursions, since once any ship hull does a better job, the smart players will migrate to that ship and dominate.

Consider, I was getting around 680 DPS with Scorch at 87 + 16 km with a non-optimised fit. On TQ, my Paladin with mult-freq's gets about 1300.
Now, that is raw DSP, not effective, but that difference is ghastly.

Further, getting everyone to turn off their Bastions precisely one minute before the ENTIRE fleet has to jump to some spot on space is next to impossible. Even if you send one ahead a few seconds, and then everyone aligns and jumps to that ship will just lead to disaster, especially if someone gets scrammed. Also, the MjD takes up a valuable slot, that could be used for webs , or cap rechargers, or TC's. There is zero chance of killing all ships before they close the distance.

All of the above is my take from a theory crafting point of view, until I can get a larger group together for testing to confirm.


You can pretty much endlessly kite with the MJD's. If your group can't align, turn modules on/off, or MJD with simple FC commands then your group has larger problems. CCP is changing their role, and I doubt these will be useless in PVP, they already show pretty good promise unless you get a large enemy hotdrop or a dread blap. Pirate BS are on the chopping block next, so the Paladin may end up still being the best incursion runner. Overall they will be better ships, especially since CCP Yitterbium has stated they are already looking to adjust the hull nerfs. He also said bonused webs are out....
Henry Montclaire
Guild of Independent Pilots
DammFam
#26 - 2013-10-10 20:34:39 UTC
Have you tried testing the effectiveness of tracking computers versus webs, or perhaps using one web and one tracking computer, thereby negating stacking penalties?
Oxigun
Halliburton Heavy Industries
#27 - 2013-10-11 00:18:28 UTC
Henry Montclaire wrote:
Have you tried testing the effectiveness of tracking computers versus webs, or perhaps using one web and one tracking computer, thereby negating stacking penalties?


I use two faction webs and two faction tracking comps and it's been working well so far. The setup is in a WH so changing it is a bit of a pita, no POS on sisi and all. I'll test the Pulse lasers when I get a chance but i may just have to use something else for the small stuff.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#28 - 2013-10-11 01:08:09 UTC
Henry Montclaire wrote:
Have you tried testing the effectiveness of tracking computers versus webs, or perhaps using one web and one tracking computer, thereby negating stacking penalties?


I ran tonight in a Paladin. I could not hit the Romi's orbiting at 22 km, outside of web range, (Thanks to the command ship nerf.) I ran with 1 TC, and two webs (for close in frigs), and was running into cap issues.

Usually, I have 2 TC's or 1 TC/1 TE on the ship, plus a Oni remote TC, to hit stuff. (And yeah, check my gunnery support skills on Eve Board, they are perfect).

But to use the Bastion module, and a LAR, I had to sacrifice lows and mids fo rcap and tank.
And in the end, it was not enough. A single LAR, with a pair of c-type EANM's, a DC II, and 2 T2 Aux Nano's, was not enough to keep it alive, as a ever so slowly lost the fight as I could not kill stuff fast enough in an NCO, and there was another Paladin in there.

Tuesday I ran with twin LAR's, and it was breeze, but had only 2 low slots available for DPS.

Bottom line, the Paladin is done as a Vanguard incursion boat. Many others now outclass it in effective DPS, and are much cheaper and skill intensive.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#29 - 2013-10-11 20:38:02 UTC
Sounds like it's time to bring out the Golem and Kronos.
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