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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Rubicon] Electronic Attack Ships

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Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#341 - 2013-10-09 01:10:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
I'm for removing the Sentinels drones ALL TOGETHER. in fact electronic warfare ships should be focused ONLY on support and DO NO DAMAGE AT ALL. NO drones and NO turret or Missile hardpoints.

F*cking electronic warfare is becoming a pandemic = )

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#342 - 2013-10-09 01:25:55 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
I'm for removing the Sentinels drones ALL TOGETHER. in fact there electronic warfare ships should be focused ONLY on support and DO NO DAMAGE AT ALL. NO drones and NO turret or Missile hardpoints.

F*cking electronic warfare is becoming a pandemic = )


Would you move high slots around or just have..... 2-3 high slots for the hyena, keres, kitsune?
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#343 - 2013-10-09 02:59:23 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:


Would you move high slots around or just have..... 2-3 high slots for the hyena, keres, kitsune?


Rearranging slots would in fact benefit these ships. For example leaving all electronic attack ships with 1 - 2 high slots. Moving 1 or 2 high slots to mid or low. Which would help overall velocity or tank.


You know, slot rearrangement is clearly the safest way to improve or NERF a ship or class of ship. Truly empowering the players by leaving innovation to THEM and BOOSTING the level customization (adding to the sandbox). Instead of relying on some poorly run team with terrible ideas v0v

Does a Sentinel need more tank? Give it one more low or mid slot and remove 1 high slot. Do you want to NERF the Drake? Remove 2 low or 2 high slots.

Is there a need to mess around with bonuses, ship velocity, shield or armor amount, and agility? No! Just allow the players to use another module to ADJUST what they DO NOT LIKE.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#344 - 2013-10-09 04:11:35 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:

And if drones are the main weapon system, then the Sentinel needs a slot removed like the other drone boats.

This "policy" only affects Gallente hulls. Big smile (I think it affects drone damage bonused ships)
Chunky Milk
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#345 - 2013-10-09 04:12:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Chunky Milk
rise m8er, how many times have you seen small gang bros like us get absolutely rekt by recons. Now you want to put a rapier into a 40-60mil package, please no not after the t1 logi buff...

a 10mn hyena can sig tank a whole gang with literally 1 scythe repping it, please repent your sins for wrecking solo with the local rep bonus.

edit: Just imagine providence with kitsunes instead of merlins, hyenas instead of rifters, that is bad.
Sleepy Buddha
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2013-10-09 05:45:25 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I don't mind the ewar bonuses these ships have

I disagree however with the massive control bonuses they are getting, neuts, points and webs at really long ranges. It basically lets you do no risk pvp where you just lock down your opponent and slowly kill him. I just really think this will have a very negative effect on the enjoyability of small scale fighting in this game.

Also do i really need to point out why ECM at 150 km is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE idea? Are our memories really that bad?


Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Reacting to frigates warping to you really won't be a thing anymore, 3 seconds is a really really short time to do any reacting.. assuming you hit your short range scan the very moment they are in range of it.


I just think you could have made them viable through something other than making them better at staying out of danger and screwing you over. The game doesn't need a frigate that neuts at 30 km or one that webs at 26..

I think this change will make small scale warfare less enjoyable while not making any real positive changes to the larger scale.

I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down.


Your fast frigate is double webbed at 26 km, now what?



I am still in noob time of my pvp evolution but with about 40 solo kills I must say, if I will see these on scan, I will probably not fight, because this things can spoil my day no matter how hard I try ;)
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#347 - 2013-10-09 06:15:22 UTC
PLS CCP,

What is the status about tracking disruptors and missile ?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#348 - 2013-10-09 08:19:01 UTC
Sleepy Buddha wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I don't mind the ewar bonuses these ships have

I disagree however with the massive control bonuses they are getting, neuts, points and webs at really long ranges. It basically lets you do no risk pvp where you just lock down your opponent and slowly kill him. I just really think this will have a very negative effect on the enjoyability of small scale fighting in this game.

Also do i really need to point out why ECM at 150 km is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE idea? Are our memories really that bad?


Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Reacting to frigates warping to you really won't be a thing anymore, 3 seconds is a really really short time to do any reacting.. assuming you hit your short range scan the very moment they are in range of it.


I just think you could have made them viable through something other than making them better at staying out of danger and screwing you over. The game doesn't need a frigate that neuts at 30 km or one that webs at 26..

I think this change will make small scale warfare less enjoyable while not making any real positive changes to the larger scale.

I tend to think that EWAR in general would diversify small scale pvp. These EAF don't look that hard to kill in a fight provided you have a fast frigate to hunt them down.


Your fast frigate is double webbed at 26 km, now what?



I am still in noob time of my pvp evolution but with about 40 solo kills I must say, if I will see these on scan, I will probably not fight, because this things can spoil my day no matter how hard I try ;)


Thing with pvp is that when you fight a guy.. his friends sometimes show up.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#349 - 2013-10-09 08:59:08 UTC
Even with all 5s, the KITSUNE still needs 2 more PWG to be properly fitted. consider adding 3 or 4 more PWG to him please.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Fetish McButt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#350 - 2013-10-09 09:11:15 UTC
This post is made from small/med scale 0.0 fleet warfare pov

First of all to the recons. They are not OP. Nowdays as people have too much isk and characters rapier / arazu is able to point/web close to 100km. quite a many of modern day "standard fits" can deal damage to or close to 100km. Long gone are the days of abaddon fleets and dmg range of 60ish kilometers.

Secondly to the EAF:s. They are fine as they are now presented except the Kitsunes RIDICILIOUS ecm range. It is easy to fit a 200ish km sniping jammer. That is WAY TOO much. Even it is not the fastest or most hp one of the EAF's, it still can jam stuff from 200ish km. Plenty enough time to GTFO if someone starts approaching.

If there is something I really dislike about the new EAF's it is the capability to do the same thing than recons to the same or longer ranges. If you are making the EAF ranges (keres / hyena namely) to the ranges earlier presented here, then the Recons needs to be buffed a bit. Make for example a small bonus to web AMOUNT bonus to accompany the range bonus to huginn/Rapier. Also strenghten the painterbonuses up a bit. More damping power to arazu/lachesis. etc etc. The pilgrim and curse have been the loosers of the Recon bracket quite a time now. They should need to be buffed.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#351 - 2013-10-09 09:58:43 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:


Would you move high slots around or just have..... 2-3 high slots for the hyena, keres, kitsune?


Rearranging slots would in fact benefit these ships. For example leaving all electronic attack ships with 1 - 2 high slots. Moving 1 or 2 high slots to mid or low. Which would help overall velocity or tank.


You know, slot rearrangement is clearly the safest way to improve or NERF a ship or class of ship. Truly empowering the players by leaving innovation to THEM and BOOSTING the level customization (adding to the sandbox). Instead of relying on some poorly run team with terrible ideas v0v

Does a Sentinel need more tank? Give it one more low or mid slot and remove 1 high slot. Do you want to NERF the Drake? Remove 2 low or 2 high slots.

Is there a need to mess around with bonuses, ship velocity, shield or armor amount, and agility? No! Just allow the players to use another module to ADJUST what they DO NOT LIKE.



On the case of the sentinel in specific removing high slots nerf their ewar.. so that is a bit mor complicated than in hte other frigates.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#352 - 2013-10-09 11:09:18 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Just.. In general.. Metrics are not good for anything but slight reference.
What should they use instead? Gut instinct? Personal preferences? Come on man. Metrics are useful. Stop knee-jerking just because your playstyle is being threatened.



How about expirience and knowledge? (He has those)

If you look at metrics you can draw the conclusion that the increased import of iron roofs to iceland in the second world war caused an increase in out of marriage pregnancy.

but if you know stuff its far more likely that it was the presence of US soldiers here that caused it.


Metrics alone are not very useful. Stop being bad.

The problem don't come from metrics in your example but from the way they are interpreted. Using random metrics to do random links between them is stupid ; using relevant metrics to backup logical assumptions is not.

And here, the facts are that EAF are not used and players always looked them with disdain and considered them useless ; except in this thread now that they are buffed some people come to say they are fine.

IMO, EAF desperately need this kind of buff to be useful or T1 EWAR frig will just be better.
Raimo
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#353 - 2013-10-09 12:22:59 UTC
Keres and Hyena will make all instalocking camps even more potent while still not making these that useful for other playstyles, not sure if this is a good thing for the game. Maybe some other boost tangent should still be considered?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#354 - 2013-10-09 12:49:20 UTC
bringing solo back
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#355 - 2013-10-09 13:36:23 UTC
More eaf madness:

Kitsune can be set up to jam outside of the max lock range coded into the game (255km) . Jamming at more than 230km requires it to fit only 2 ecm instead of 3 though.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#356 - 2013-10-09 13:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Much of the problem here is to do with warfare links being hilariously overpowered, rather than EAFs.

You can tweak EAFs to be balanced without links - but they'll be OP with them. Or you can make them balanced with links - but they'll be crap without them. I don't think you'll solve this dilemma without nerfing the hell out of links. For frigates, mobility and range matter, and the ~30% bonuses to speed, sig, tackle range and ewar range and strength offered by links are simply far too powerful.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#357 - 2013-10-09 14:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Unlinked it still has 1st jam falloff at 200

Edit: It can also fit a cloak, and can permajam most frigates
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#358 - 2013-10-09 14:26:29 UTC
Alright you win !

Yesterday spent some time talking internally and I think I'm going to make some tweaks to tone them down a little. Not sure exactly what the numbers will be yet and I'm not in the office today but I'll post here letting you know when we work something out.

Thanks for the help

@ccp_rise
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#359 - 2013-10-09 14:32:52 UTC
gf
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#360 - 2013-10-09 14:33:12 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright you win !

Yesterday spent some time talking internally and I think I'm going to make some tweaks to tone them down a little. Not sure exactly what the numbers will be yet and I'm not in the office today but I'll post here letting you know when we work something out.

Thanks for the help



PLease.. be gentle.. nerf a bit. Do not hit it with the same bat you have hit the hurricane please.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"