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Rubicon Marauder web changes

Author
Oxigun
Halliburton Heavy Industries
#1 - 2013-10-08 20:58:30 UTC
I just logged on to test the new Marauder changes and the web nerf the Paladin received.
It is now impossible to hit a frigate, even with dual faction webs. Believe me, I tried.

I don' t know if the same applies to the Kronos but good luck seeing the Pali solo in a Plex or clearing a WH site. It doesn't help me if it hits harder when it can't hit the actual target. Oh, and no, I don't want to use drones, they are slow and die far too quickly in WH space.

Please consider removing the tractor bonus and putting back the web bonus.
Vrenth
Gregarious Games Mechanized Federation
Solyaris Chtonium
#2 - 2013-10-08 21:07:45 UTC
Oxigun wrote:
I just logged on to test the new Marauder changes and the web nerf the Paladin received.
It is now impossible to hit a frigate, even with dual faction webs. Believe me, I tried.

I don' t know if the same applies to the Kronos but good luck seeing the Pali solo in a Plex or clearing a WH site. It doesn't help me if it hits harder when it can't hit the actual target. Oh, and no, I don't want to use drones, they are slow and die far too quickly in WH space.

Please consider removing the tractor bonus and putting back the web bonus.


Remove a pve bonus and put on a pvp bonus.... this is coming from a carebear? What are we doing with our lives?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#3 - 2013-10-08 21:53:55 UTC
If the drone bays were large enough for lots of spare drones, it wouldn't be so bad. Light drones aren't the end of the earth etc to loose occasionally. However with the tiny drone bays present this presents a real issue.
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-10-08 22:18:37 UTC
i think they have 50m3 drone space now instead of 25
Oxigun
Halliburton Heavy Industries
#5 - 2013-10-08 22:28:33 UTC
Vrenth wrote:
Oxigun wrote:
I just logged on to test the new Marauder changes and the web nerf the Paladin received.
It is now impossible to hit a frigate, even with dual faction webs. Believe me, I tried.

I don' t know if the same applies to the Kronos but good luck seeing the Pali solo in a Plex or clearing a WH site. It doesn't help me if it hits harder when it can't hit the actual target. Oh, and no, I don't want to use drones, they are slow and die far too quickly in WH space.

Please consider removing the tractor bonus and putting back the web bonus.


Remove a pve bonus and put on a pvp bonus.... this is coming from a carebear? What are we doing with our lives?


Yes, because no one has heard of anyone having multiple accounts, pvp or otherwise.

In any case, to follow up on some of the other folks, the drone bay was shrunk from 75m3 to 50m3 so if you now have to carry small drones to deal with the frigs, you can't carry anything else.

I'm not entirely sure what this web change was supposed to accomplish. I understand you want to have a mini-dread with a short(er) siege/bastion cycle but you are pushing these ships to an even smaller niche. Why would I consider taking a 1B+ ISK ship into a fight when interceptors can now be on top of me in seconds...
Alxea
Unstable Pirate Sharks Of The Damed Sea
#6 - 2013-10-08 23:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alxea
To be effective in pvp these ships need a web bonus otherwise they will just be tackled forever and not only that some ships can slow boat their way out and warp off. Dual webs with no bonus to slowing the target makes this ship useless. Not just useless in pve. Would be wonderful to get all your light drone popped and then not be able to get out of a plex because of a lone frigate you can't hit and be perma tackled. Whos bright idea was it to remove the web bonus so we couldn't hit frigates with our guns? Take off the range bonuses and give them back the web slowing bonus otherwise these ships are useless in actual combat. Even a well tanked BS can slowly get away from a standing still BS.
Darkwolf
#7 - 2013-10-08 23:32:46 UTC
I had no issue blapping frigates with a blaster Kronos last night, no webs. I'll be testing a pulse Paladin tonight. I expect to have no issues, and even if I did, you've got an MJD bonus for a reason. Just lock up all the frigates, MJD out to range and blap them.

EDIT: PVE focus, obviously.
Oxigun
Halliburton Heavy Industries
#8 - 2013-10-09 04:31:13 UTC
Darkwolf wrote:
I had no issue blapping frigates with a blaster Kronos last night, no webs. I'll be testing a pulse Paladin tonight. I expect to have no issues, and even if I did, you've got an MJD bonus for a reason. Just lock up all the frigates, MJD out to range and blap them.

EDIT: PVE focus, obviously.


Well, that's the beauty of the Pali. With Tachyons and the web bonus, the usable range is almost 0-100km based on skill/bonuses. If i have to use a Kronos/Vindi to take care of the frigs/cruisers, it means I have to bring something else, something I'm trying to avoid...

I know, I know, I'm lazy, i should fit a prop mod so I can move around and give my marauder an even bigger sig radius for the wandering covops/interceptor...
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#9 - 2013-10-09 05:01:13 UTC
Or perhaps you should fit something that tracks a little bit better than a Tachyon. Try pulses. You've got Bastion to increase their range pretty significantly.
Darkwolf
#10 - 2013-10-09 05:31:58 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Or perhaps you should fit something that tracks a little bit better than a Tachyon. Try pulses. You've got Bastion to increase their range pretty significantly.


This. You can shoot a long-ass way with Bastion on, even with short-ranged weapons. I was clearing 67km falloff with neutron blasters and null. Pulse with scorch should fare better than that.

There seems to me to be little point in using tachs with the Bastion module.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#11 - 2013-10-09 06:06:35 UTC
Darkwolf wrote:
This. You can shoot a long-ass way with Bastion on, even with short-ranged weapons. I was clearing 67km falloff with neutron blasters and null. Pulse with scorch should fare better than that.

There seems to me to be little point in using tachs with the Bastion module.


I can't use Scorch (Or T2 large lasers for that matter), but a little poking around in EFT revealed that Scorch and Microwave have roughly the same range, with a slight advantage to Scorch. So I took my Paladin out with four m4 Megapulses fitted, MJD'd away from the station to not clog up the undock and turned on the Bastion module.

Even though my skills aren't enough for T2 large lasers, my supporting skills are pretty top-notch and so I'm fairly confident in the numbers I got.

With no tracking or range mods fitted, I can get Microwave L to have an optimal of 69km and a falloff of 81km in Bastion mode. I have Sharpshooter IV and Trajectory Analysis IV.

I would estimate Scorch to be 72km optimal and 81km falloff in Bastion under my skills, and 75km/~83km optimal/falloff under all relevant Lv5 skills.
suid0
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#12 - 2013-10-09 08:31:55 UTC
It would probably help if you linked the fit you were using OP.

Getting on and ranting that you couldn't hit a frig with dual webs doesn't help as there is no context.

For comparison, in an 800mm Vargur I was blapping frigs that were at 10km with no webs at all.

If you are using Tachs and trying to shoot frigs within web range you are probably doing it wrong. Your ship gets a bonus to MJD cooldown and you've fit long range guns. You should be MJDing, blapping then MJD back again. Pulses should still be effective when used this way, it worked with 800mm ACs.

the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones  - Commander Ted

Darkwolf
#13 - 2013-10-09 08:54:53 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I would estimate Scorch to be 72km optimal and 81km falloff in Bastion under my skills, and 75km/~83km optimal/falloff under all relevant Lv5 skills.


Just got on then. 97km optimal (!!!!!) with Mega Pulse & Scorch on my Paladin. Web bonus was swapped out for an optimal range bonus, and I don't miss it one bit.

Using one tracking enhancer, one tracking computer, and one optimal range rig.
DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators
#14 - 2013-10-09 09:04:56 UTC
Paladin, T2 Tachs, no mods affecting optimal + navy multifreq = 99km optimal, perfect for the MJD :p
marVLs
#15 - 2013-10-09 09:42:22 UTC  |  Edited by: marVLs
DTson Gauur wrote:
Paladin, T2 Tachs, no mods affecting optimal + navy multifreq = 99km optimal, perfect for the MJD :p


lol check again because that's not true, Ultraviolet got 99km without mods and in Bastion not multi...


Vargur desperately needs another med slot, Kronos need it, Paladin seems ok, golem could get another low slot, that's how bad they're balanced, especially Vargur is bad...
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#16 - 2013-10-09 12:24:49 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If the drone bays were large enough for lots of spare drones, it wouldn't be so bad. Light drones aren't the end of the earth etc to loose occasionally. However with the tiny drone bays present this presents a real issue.


I ran an Incursion site last night.
I lost ALL my drones, because the drones were doing more damage than the Pulses against frigs, and the NPC's turned on them.

So yeah, losing 4 million in drones every site is kind of a big deal.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#17 - 2013-10-09 13:57:11 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If the drone bays were large enough for lots of spare drones, it wouldn't be so bad. Light drones aren't the end of the earth etc to loose occasionally. However with the tiny drone bays present this presents a real issue.


I ran an Incursion site last night.
I lost ALL my drones, because the drones were doing more damage than the Pulses against frigs, and the NPC's turned on them.

So yeah, losing 4 million in drones every site is kind of a big deal.


To be fair, you're trying to fly new marauders the same way you fly the old marauders when they're really not the same at all. You're fitting and flying the ship as if it has a web bonus when it doesn't. You may need to look into a new technique, such as adding a web-bonused combat ship or two that isn't a Paladin or using that MJD bonus to keep the small ships where you want them. Short-range weapons do reach ridiculously far now that we have Bastion.


I wanted to say this, but the thread you posted didn't seem to be an appropriate place for it so I'll say it here:

The last time we saw the Marauder Rebalance™ adjusted to suit the needs of Incursion runners, they ended up being complete trash that was useless for anything except Incursions and maybe wormholes. They had a web bonus that made no sense when paired with having a MJD bonus - even the Golem had a web bonus for some reason. They had T2 resists on the hull itself which were inferior to the resist profile they currently have in Bastion mode. The Bastion module added no resists. They all lost their hull bonuses to local rep, effectively forcing you to either use Bastion for the rep bonuses or have RR. It was so terrible that CCP quickly canceled Version 2 and stopped replying in the thread for at least a week.

It may sound confrontational, but if the Incursion-runners who pull in hundreds of millions of ISK per day need to fit their ships differently, fly their ships differently or even get new ships entirely in order to let Marauders become better than what they currently are on TQ then that's something I can see as reasonable.

Your fleet is highly refined and heavily min/maxed and optimized for its task, which means it's extremely vulnerable to even slight changes in operating conditions. Your operating conditions are getting changed. You'll need to adjust. Attempting to fly the same way you've always flown will definitely make these ships look nerfed, as they simply don't work the same way they used to anymore. You already have evidence of that from your last testing session. For the next session I would strongly urge you to try flying with the ship's new form in mind rather than trying to shoehorn it into the flying style you currently use.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#18 - 2013-10-09 15:34:51 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
If the drone bays were large enough for lots of spare drones, it wouldn't be so bad. Light drones aren't the end of the earth etc to loose occasionally. However with the tiny drone bays present this presents a real issue.


I ran an Incursion site last night.
I lost ALL my drones, because the drones were doing more damage than the Pulses against frigs, and the NPC's turned on them.

So yeah, losing 4 million in drones every site is kind of a big deal.


To be fair, you're trying to fly new marauders the same way you fly the old marauders when they're really not the same at all. You're fitting and flying the ship as if it has a web bonus when it doesn't. You may need to look into a new technique, such as adding a web-bonused combat ship or two that isn't a Paladin or using that MJD bonus to keep the small ships where you want them. Short-range weapons do reach ridiculously far now that we have Bastion.


I wanted to say this, but the thread you posted didn't seem to be an appropriate place for it so I'll say it here:

The last time we saw the Marauder Rebalance™ adjusted to suit the needs of Incursion runners, they ended up being complete trash that was useless for anything except Incursions and maybe wormholes. They had a web bonus that made no sense when paired with having a MJD bonus - even the Golem had a web bonus for some reason. They had T2 resists on the hull itself which were inferior to the resist profile they currently have in Bastion mode. The Bastion module added no resists. They all lost their hull bonuses to local rep, effectively forcing you to either use Bastion for the rep bonuses or have RR. It was so terrible that CCP quickly canceled Version 2 and stopped replying in the thread for at least a week.

It may sound confrontational, but if the Incursion-runners who pull in hundreds of millions of ISK per day need to fit their ships differently, fly their ships differently or even get new ships entirely in order to let Marauders become better than what they currently are on TQ then that's something I can see as reasonable.

Your fleet is highly refined and heavily min/maxed and optimized for its task, which means it's extremely vulnerable to even slight changes in operating conditions. Your operating conditions are getting changed. You'll need to adjust. Attempting to fly the same way you've always flown will definitely make these ships look nerfed, as they simply don't work the same way they used to anymore. You already have evidence of that from your last testing session. For the next session I would strongly urge you to try flying with the ship's new form in mind rather than trying to shoehorn it into the flying style you currently use.


What you say is my worst fear realized.
I hope that what you say will be proven wrong with massive testing, but I doubt it.

The reason those ship fits were optimised is because Incursions are highly competitive, and the fits/doctrines we used were the best armour doctrine available. Any change to that nerfed ISK / hour.

If what you say is accurate, and before testing confirms it, I believe you, then the Paladin is no longer of any use in Incursions, since once any ship hull does a better job, the smart players will migrate to that ship and dominate.

Consider, I was getting around 680 DPS with Scorch at 87 + 16 km with a non-optimised fit. On TQ, my Paladin with mult-freq's gets about 1300.
Now, that is raw DSP, not effective, but that difference is ghastly.

Further, getting everyone to turn off their Bastions precisely one minute before the ENTIRE fleet has to jump to some spot on space is next to impossible. Even if you send one ahead a few seconds, and then everyone aligns and jumps to that ship will just lead to disaster, especially if someone gets scrammed. Also, the MjD takes up a valuable slot, that could be used for webs , or cap rechargers, or TC's. There is zero chance of killing all ships before they close the distance.

All of the above is my take from a theory crafting point of view, until I can get a larger group together for testing to confirm.
Vrenth
Gregarious Games Mechanized Federation
Solyaris Chtonium
#19 - 2013-10-09 15:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Vrenth
Oxigun wrote:
Vrenth wrote:
Oxigun wrote:
I just logged on to test the new Marauder changes and the web nerf the Paladin received.
It is now impossible to hit a frigate, even with dual faction webs. Believe me, I tried.

I don' t know if the same applies to the Kronos but good luck seeing the Pali solo in a Plex or clearing a WH site. It doesn't help me if it hits harder when it can't hit the actual target. Oh, and no, I don't want to use drones, they are slow and die far too quickly in WH space.

Please consider removing the tractor bonus and putting back the web bonus.


Remove a pve bonus and put on a pvp bonus.... this is coming from a carebear? What are we doing with our lives?


Yes, because no one has heard of anyone having multiple accounts, pvp or otherwise.

In any case, to follow up on some of the other folks, the drone bay was shrunk from 75m3 to 50m3 so if you now have to carry small drones to deal with the frigs, you can't carry anything else.

I'm not entirely sure what this web change was supposed to accomplish. I understand you want to have a mini-dread with a short(er) siege/bastion cycle but you are pushing these ships to an even smaller niche. Why would I consider taking a 1B+ ISK ship into a fight when interceptors can now be on top of me in seconds...


The "small niche" that CCP seems to have always wanted for marauders is a solo pve boat. All of the bonuses have always pointed towards that. Now with their ability to use the bastion module to multiply their tank and lose incoming RR abilities, it solidifies that role. There is no npc frigate in the game that 5 light drones can't kill with webs on it (this is assuming your dont have large guns that can already track webbed frigates).

This isnt a wonderboat that is going to have a large number of applications. They seem to want it used for MJDing in missions/plexes and sniping targets down as they approach, and if you happen to get caught by a scramming frigate( rare) the drones are there for that purpose alone.

If you use short range guns and forego a MJD, losing your drones and getting tackled a risk you take. The web bonus may return, but IMO it makes them too powerful in PVE comparing them to pirate BS (already OP) and I welcome the change.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#20 - 2013-10-09 16:12:02 UTC
Vrenth wrote:
Oxigun wrote:
Vrenth wrote:
Oxigun wrote:
I just logged on to test the new Marauder changes and the web nerf the Paladin received.
It is now impossible to hit a frigate, even with dual faction webs. Believe me, I tried.

I don' t know if the same applies to the Kronos but good luck seeing the Pali solo in a Plex or clearing a WH site. It doesn't help me if it hits harder when it can't hit the actual target. Oh, and no, I don't want to use drones, they are slow and die far too quickly in WH space.

Please consider removing the tractor bonus and putting back the web bonus.


Remove a pve bonus and put on a pvp bonus.... this is coming from a carebear? What are we doing with our lives?


Yes, because no one has heard of anyone having multiple accounts, pvp or otherwise.

In any case, to follow up on some of the other folks, the drone bay was shrunk from 75m3 to 50m3 so if you now have to carry small drones to deal with the frigs, you can't carry anything else.

I'm not entirely sure what this web change was supposed to accomplish. I understand you want to have a mini-dread with a short(er) siege/bastion cycle but you are pushing these ships to an even smaller niche. Why would I consider taking a 1B+ ISK ship into a fight when interceptors can now be on top of me in seconds...


The "small niche" that CCP seems to have always wanted for marauders is a solo pve boat. All of the bonuses have always pointed towards that. Now with their ability to use the bastion module to multiply their tank and lose incoming RR abilities, it solidifies that role. There is no npc frigate in the game that 5 light drones can't kill with webs on it (this is assuming your dont have large guns that can already track webbed frigates).

This isnt a wonderboat that is going to have a large number of applications. They seem to want it used for MJDing in missions/plexes and sniping targets down as they approach, and if you happen to get caught by a scramming frigate( rare) the drones are there for that purpose alone.

If you use short range guns and forego a MJD, losing your drones and getting tackled a risk you take. The web bonus may return, but IMO it makes them too powerful in PVE comparing them to pirate BS (already OP) and I welcome the change.


I find it ironic that people scream "IT is an MMO, you should play with others", then when people who fly group PvE, namely Incursion runners, who fly Marauders, it is OK that they take it in the ass with these changes.

MJD'ing by yourself is one thing. Doing it with 10 or 11 pilots in a synchronized move is quite another, all who have to turn off their Bastion mode precisely 1 minute before jumping.

Looks to me that CCP really wants to completely eradicate the Marauder from Incursions.
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