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[Proposal] AFK game play - the cloaked vessel

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Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#61 - 2013-10-07 14:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jint Hikaru
Nofearion wrote:

Players should be active, Mechanics should support this.


If your intention is to claim that player should be active, then your solution should address all inactive players, not just cloakers.


as for your reply to 1, making a ship scannable just because it has a cyno is a nerf to the cloak. If your problem is that a cloaked vessel can drop a cyno, then address that fact. Ask for the cyno to be tied into the drop-cloak targeting delay or something.

2. even with a crappy scanner all it takes is one ping to tell you if a cloaker is close to you. This has nothing to do with 'finding an AFK cloaker' as they will not be within 15Km of a warpable point anyway.

3. Once again it's the cloaked cyno ship thats a problem..... starting to see a pattern. Deal with the speed of a cyno pop and you are golden.

4. Go to Jita, so many people sending the same spam chat every minute, 23.5 hours a day. Thats a macro... CCP does eff-all.

4. Buy a wiggler, its a USB device that flicks the mouse one pixel left and right at a high speed. Used to keep machines from going into power save when you dont want to adjust the settings.


also "there is not current mechanics for interaction with cloaked ships once established in system"

There are may ways to interact and deal with a cloaker in a system. Not to mention, if you are that adiment that its 'your' system, why not protect it and not allow a red to become established in the first place.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#62 - 2013-10-07 16:40:22 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
Nofearion wrote:

Players should be active, Mechanics should support this.


If your intention is to claim that player should be active, then your solution should address all inactive players, not just cloakers.


as for your reply to 1, making a ship scannable just because it has a cyno is a nerf to the cloak. If your problem is that a cloaked vessel can drop a cyno, then address that fact. Ask for the cyno to be tied into the drop-cloak targeting delay or something.

2. even with a crappy scanner all it takes is one ping to tell you if a cloaker is close to you. This has nothing to do with 'finding an AFK cloaker' as they will not be within 15Km of a warpable point anyway.

3. Once again it's the cloaked cyno ship thats a problem..... starting to see a pattern. Deal with the speed of a cyno pop and you are golden.

4. Go to Jita, so many people sending the same spam chat every minute, 23.5 hours a day. Thats a macro... CCP does eff-all.

4. Buy a wiggler, its a USB device that flicks the mouse one pixel left and right at a high speed. Used to keep machines from going into power save when you dont want to adjust the settings.


also "there is not current mechanics for interaction with cloaked ships once established in system"

There are may ways to interact and deal with a cloaker in a system. Not to mention, if you are that adiment that its 'your' system, why not protect it and not allow a red to become established in the first place.


Are you actually suggesting and supporting that I and others use attachments and software to enable AFK game play?
and if you are do you realize that you are advocating people to violate the EULA?
as to the rest of your arguments I suggest you re read all the previous arguments.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#63 - 2013-10-07 17:06:11 UTC
Nofearion wrote:
Jint Hikaru wrote:
Nofearion wrote:

Players should be active, Mechanics should support this.

4. Buy a wiggler, its a USB device that flicks the mouse one pixel left and right at a high speed. Used to keep machines from going into power save when you dont want to adjust the settings.


also "there is not current mechanics for interaction with cloaked ships once established in system"

There are may ways to interact and deal with a cloaker in a system. Not to mention, if you are that adiment that its 'your' system, why not protect it and not allow a red to become established in the first place.


Are you actually suggesting and supporting that I and others use attachments and software to enable AFK game play?
and if you are do you realize that you are advocating people to violate the EULA?
as to the rest of your arguments I suggest you re read all the previous arguments.

As this does not violate the spirit of the rules, CCP would not care.

Seriously, you can get the same effect from a mouse with a flaky optical reader on the wrong surface.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#64 - 2013-10-07 17:41:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Nofearion wrote:
Jint Hikaru wrote:
Nofearion wrote:

Players should be active, Mechanics should support this.

4. Buy a wiggler, its a USB device that flicks the mouse one pixel left and right at a high speed. Used to keep machines from going into power save when you dont want to adjust the settings.


also "there is not current mechanics for interaction with cloaked ships once established in system"

There are may ways to interact and deal with a cloaker in a system. Not to mention, if you are that adiment that its 'your' system, why not protect it and not allow a red to become established in the first place.


Are you actually suggesting and supporting that I and others use attachments and software to enable AFK game play?
and if you are do you realize that you are advocating people to violate the EULA?
as to the rest of your arguments I suggest you re read all the previous arguments.

As this does not violate the spirit of the rules, CCP would not care.

Seriously, you can get the same effect from a mouse with a flaky optical reader on the wrong surface.
Indeed. Let's be honest here, AFK timers would simply not work. Too easily bypassed and without breaking the EULA.
Plus ask yourself do CCP even want it? Seeing as AFK players have next to no load, but add numbers to the server, I doubt it.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#65 - 2013-10-07 19:10:46 UTC
I just watched a video of someone warping under the new warp system using an interceptor which of course has immunity to bubbles, the speed is just amazing and I think that even the most hapless gank bear who required 2 minutes delay on local should be able to catch something.

The fun part comes in that it changes the way that he game works to a huge degree, local is not really that much of a protection, in that you will have swarming masses of interceptors running ahead of the roaming fleets. On many AFK cloaking threads you chaps have gone on about local being the reason for AFK cloaking as people cannot catch anything with local, so you can imagine my interest in seeing just how this pans out and the impact on the those AFK cloaking if what you said is true.

In terms of the mouse thing, yeah that would make it difficult, good point even if it is technically against the EULA.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#66 - 2013-10-08 07:51:41 UTC
Nofearion wrote:

Are you actually suggesting and supporting that I and others use attachments and software to enable AFK game play?
and if you are do you realize that you are advocating people to violate the EULA?


You know perfectly well I'm not advocating any form of EULA violation. I'm just pointing out how easy it is to bypass any type of AFK kick-out.

Not to mention that the two that I pointed out are not EULA violations anyway. If they were then Jita would be a much quieter place. (to be quite honest I wish macroing repeat messages to the local channel was a violation)

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#67 - 2013-10-08 13:29:27 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I just watched a video of someone warping under the new warp system using an interceptor which of course has immunity to bubbles, the speed is just amazing and I think that even the most hapless gank bear who required 2 minutes delay on local should be able to catch something.

The fun part comes in that it changes the way that he game works to a huge degree, local is not really that much of a protection, in that you will have swarming masses of interceptors running ahead of the roaming fleets. On many AFK cloaking threads you chaps have gone on about local being the reason for AFK cloaking as people cannot catch anything with local, so you can imagine my interest in seeing just how this pans out and the impact on the those AFK cloaking if what you said is true.

In terms of the mouse thing, yeah that would make it difficult, good point even if it is technically against the EULA.

Step one: be prepared. Done. This means being aligned or in a ship that aligns fast enough to make no difference.
It may not be the most efficient way to work PvE, especially compared to a min-max fitting, but it makes me impossible to catch unless I screw it up first.

So long as local lets me hit warp before you have even loaded grid, you have no chance to catch me.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#68 - 2013-10-08 14:50:20 UTC
I like receiving all the good arguments and discussion.
please lets remember what this thread is about.
Interaction with cloaked ships.
this is the situation - Ship enters system finds a safe and cloaks up. later people come into system or log on. Following the only protocol that is safe for this situation is to stay in pos\station or leave and go somewhere else. this leaves the system unused and effectively shut down as there is currently no mechanic in place to know
a. is the cloaked pilot active or not
b. is the cloaked pilot carrying a cyno
c. is there a threat of force projection
there currently is now mechanic that allows you to interact and remove this threat if they never uncloak. I know I have heard all the arguments and it leaves much to be desired as I am pointing out an imbalance.
If no one approves of the suggestions made.
scannable cloaked cyno
scannable cloaked ship with probes and skills.
removing local and adding in new intel
log off mechanics.

then please give me a viable suggestion for a mechanic that allows me to if not hunt and interact with a cloaked vessel under the above circumstances. then at least interact and remove or change the situation after a reasonable period of time.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#69 - 2013-10-08 15:38:30 UTC
Nofearion wrote:
I like receiving all the good arguments and discussion.
please lets remember what this thread is about.
Interaction with cloaked ships.
this is the situation - Ship enters system finds a safe and cloaks up. later people come into system or log on. Following the only protocol that is safe for this situation is to stay in pos\station or leave and go somewhere else. this leaves the system unused and effectively shut down as there is currently no mechanic in place to know
a. is the cloaked pilot active or not
b. is the cloaked pilot carrying a cyno
c. is there a threat of force projection
there currently is now mechanic that allows you to interact and remove this threat if they never uncloak. I know I have heard all the arguments and it leaves much to be desired as I am pointing out an imbalance.
If no one approves of the suggestions made.
scannable cloaked cyno
scannable cloaked ship with probes and skills.
removing local and adding in new intel
log off mechanics.

then please give me a viable suggestion for a mechanic that allows me to if not hunt and interact with a cloaked vessel under the above circumstances. then at least interact and remove or change the situation after a reasonable period of time.

First off, your foundation is flawed. The system is NOT shut down.

You can still operate, if you do so as part of a group, or make preparations to deal with hostiles directly.

What do I mean?
Go, undock, do PvE with others covering you. A group working together, even with individually weak ships, can handle threats.
Worried about a cyno? Block them with a jammer.
Worried about covert cynos? Don't be easy to kill. Covert hostiles are more expensive to put in the field, and that is how they are balanced.

If you can't beat em, leave: Fit stabs, plant bubbles around your gates, use smart bombs, align to your exit.
One or more of these strategies puts you back in the game.

In null sec, effort is the price of admission, and if your opponent is making a current effort, you need to at least match it.

As to limiting cloaked ships, they are already balanced. The most agreed upon trade off for detecting them in a new way, is to require effort for the existing method.
This translates as: Not being listed for free in local as a trade off to being able to scan them down.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#70 - 2013-10-08 18:57:29 UTC
thanks for the reply Nikk, but as you know you have not addressed the issue. If I was a renter I might agree with your tactics.
As one who does pay the price to live in null, and again I do not rent. I want to remove hostels from whatever systems I want to use. here are some facts to keep in mind.
If I did not want local -I would still live in a wormhole. there is still a lot of that space left unused as well.
If I wanted to gimp my pvp fit to escape I would simply rent space - Note i'm not a big ratter, and yes I mine but it is not my main profession.
as to intelligence gathering and system use, Technically speaking no the system is not shut down.
Let me ask you this, how many empty systems do you fly through to get a fight?
Having the ability to deal directly with a cloaked ship gives more options to pvp.
it also would give more options to those who would use the space for things other than sitting around afk.
it would also increase the amount of people willing to use space in pve fashion and would provide more targets.
as some have pointed out, I for one am looking forward to the new interceptor balance and its new role along with warp changes.
this alone is said to make afk cloaking obsolete. I do not think so as there are many out there who either looking for easy isk by sitting in a system waiting to be paid to leave or have a grudge to grind and want to deny space.
AFK cloaking is a cheap way to cause disruption in a system or constellation.
that is what I am seeking to balance.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#71 - 2013-10-08 21:17:33 UTC
Nofearion wrote:
thanks for the reply Nikk, but as you know you have not addressed the issue. If I was a renter I might agree with your tactics.
As one who does pay the price to live in null, and again I do not rent. I want to remove hostels from whatever systems I want to use. here are some facts to keep in mind.
If I did not want local -I would still live in a wormhole. there is still a lot of that space left unused as well.
If I wanted to gimp my pvp fit to escape I would simply rent space - Note i'm not a big ratter, and yes I mine but it is not my main profession.
as to intelligence gathering and system use, Technically speaking no the system is not shut down.
Let me ask you this, how many empty systems do you fly through to get a fight?
Having the ability to deal directly with a cloaked ship gives more options to pvp.
it also would give more options to those who would use the space for things other than sitting around afk.
it would also increase the amount of people willing to use space in pve fashion and would provide more targets.
as some have pointed out, I for one am looking forward to the new interceptor balance and its new role along with warp changes.
this alone is said to make afk cloaking obsolete. I do not think so as there are many out there who either looking for easy isk by sitting in a system waiting to be paid to leave or have a grudge to grind and want to deny space.
AFK cloaking is a cheap way to cause disruption in a system or constellation.
that is what I am seeking to balance.

Answering the underlined more specifically:
I don't go looking for fights so much, I am a miner.

As such, I rely on hostiles to act as a filter, and get rid of those who would also be miners.
I prefer if they are more effective against other alliances or corps, but either way the quality of my efforts is more significant rather than the quantity here.
As the hostiles are mostly impotent on this aspect, I instead observe the returns on my time being somewhat limited.

The problem you are facing, is that hostile free environments are not normal. If you avoid them too often, you lose the will to take risks or operate at all with them present.

Being around players flying spaceships, who want to blow you up, is the point of the game, remember?
Call their bluff. Make them unwilling to risk confrontation instead, or take it on your terms.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#72 - 2013-10-09 21:03:08 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Nofearion wrote:
thanks for the reply Nikk, but as you know you have not addressed the issue. If I was a renter I might agree with your tactics.
As one who does pay the price to live in null, and again I do not rent. I want to remove hostels from whatever systems I want to use. here are some facts to keep in mind.
If I did not want local -I would still live in a wormhole. there is still a lot of that space left unused as well.
If I wanted to gimp my pvp fit to escape I would simply rent space - Note i'm not a big ratter, and yes I mine but it is not my main profession.
as to intelligence gathering and system use, Technically speaking no the system is not shut down.
Let me ask you this, how many empty systems do you fly through to get a fight?
Having the ability to deal directly with a cloaked ship gives more options to pvp.
it also would give more options to those who would use the space for things other than sitting around afk.
it would also increase the amount of people willing to use space in pve fashion and would provide more targets.
as some have pointed out, I for one am looking forward to the new interceptor balance and its new role along with warp changes.
this alone is said to make afk cloaking obsolete. I do not think so as there are many out there who either looking for easy isk by sitting in a system waiting to be paid to leave or have a grudge to grind and want to deny space.
AFK cloaking is a cheap way to cause disruption in a system or constellation.
that is what I am seeking to balance.

Answering the underlined more specifically:
I don't go looking for fights so much, I am a miner.

As such, I rely on hostiles to act as a filter, and get rid of those who would also be miners.
I prefer if they are more effective against other alliances or corps, but either way the quality of my efforts is more significant rather than the quantity here.
As the hostiles are mostly impotent on this aspect, I instead observe the returns on my time being somewhat limited.

The problem you are facing, is that hostile free environments are not normal. If you avoid them too often, you lose the will to take risks or operate at all with them present.

Being around players flying spaceships, who want to blow you up, is the point of the game, remember?
Call their bluff. Make them unwilling to risk confrontation instead, or take it on your terms.


o.O
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#73 - 2013-10-09 22:00:33 UTC
Nofearion wrote:
Jint Hikaru wrote:
Nofearion wrote:

Players should be active, Mechanics should support this.


If your intention is to claim that player should be active, then your solution should address all inactive players, not just cloakers.


as for your reply to 1, making a ship scannable just because it has a cyno is a nerf to the cloak. If your problem is that a cloaked vessel can drop a cyno, then address that fact. Ask for the cyno to be tied into the drop-cloak targeting delay or something.

2. even with a crappy scanner all it takes is one ping to tell you if a cloaker is close to you. This has nothing to do with 'finding an AFK cloaker' as they will not be within 15Km of a warpable point anyway.

3. Once again it's the cloaked cyno ship thats a problem..... starting to see a pattern. Deal with the speed of a cyno pop and you are golden.

4. Go to Jita, so many people sending the same spam chat every minute, 23.5 hours a day. Thats a macro... CCP does eff-all.

4. Buy a wiggler, its a USB device that flicks the mouse one pixel left and right at a high speed. Used to keep machines from going into power save when you dont want to adjust the settings.


also "there is not current mechanics for interaction with cloaked ships once established in system"

There are may ways to interact and deal with a cloaker in a system. Not to mention, if you are that adiment that its 'your' system, why not protect it and not allow a red to become established in the first place.


Are you actually suggesting and supporting that I and others use attachments and software to enable AFK game play?
and if you are do you realize that you are advocating people to violate the EULA?
as to the rest of your arguments I suggest you re read all the previous arguments.


I've never heard of "wigglers" but I'm not at all sure that they'd violate the EULA.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#74 - 2013-10-10 08:32:55 UTC
My bad, they are called 'Jiggler'

Example of one

They simply jiggle the mouse slightly (or a lot if you want to prank a mate) so the computer does not detect inactivity.

As they do not automate any button presses or any type of in game controls I would imagine they do not violate the EULA.

I was merely pointing out the ease of fooling an inactivity logoff system, and in no way advocating any form of BOTing.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#75 - 2013-10-13 15:53:31 UTC
keep in mind to move a ship in a different direction a CLICK is required as such a button would need to be pressed.
Nofearion
Destructive Brothers
Fraternity.
#76 - 2013-10-14 18:34:00 UTC
Initial post edited to bring the ideas of this discussion forward
Baaldor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#77 - 2013-10-14 19:13:29 UTC
Nofearion wrote:
In summary :
We should have the Ability to hunt cloaked ships. Even more so if they are not active.
If you do not like any of the suggestions made. Please give a viable suggestion for a mechanic that allows pilots to hunt and or interact with a cloaked vessel once established in a system.



This not an open discussion, it is a closed and narrow discussion. You want everyone to stay with in the perimeters you set. If yuo want an open honest discussion you are going have to listen to the player base that practices such tactics. You know the tactics they some how prevents you from doing whatever it is you have to do.

It has been brought up many times and yet you have not explained how an AFK cloaker prevent you from doing anything.




Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#78 - 2013-10-15 10:54:52 UTC
Nofearion wrote:
In summary :
We should have the Ability to hunt cloaked ships. Even more so if they are not active.
If you do not like any of the suggestions made. Please give a viable suggestion for a mechanic that allows pilots to hunt and or interact with a cloaked vessel once established in a system.


Cloak should mean Cloak.

If a cloaked vessel manages to get itself established in your obviously poorly defended system, then you should fly in a way that protects yourself from an enemy vessel, after all this is Zero Security Space.

If it was up to me, a cloaked vessel would not appear on your all seeing eye of Local. After all its Local that is causing an AFK Cloaker to 'interact' with you.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Oswaldos
The Upside Down
#79 - 2013-10-15 17:28:52 UTC
I'm not a fan of local as in intel tool and to a lesser degree i'm not a fan of ships that are completely unscannable. I don't see the removal of local happening in K-space any time soon as too many people are opposed to it. However if the new warp mechanics allow for a substantial improvement on the ability to catch people at belts and titan bridging to some effect was rebalanced does anybody see a scanning down option for cloaked ships?
Baaldor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-10-15 18:12:17 UTC
Oswaldos wrote:
I'm not a fan of local as in intel tool and to a lesser degree i'm not a fan of ships that are completely unscannable. I don't see the removal of local happening in K-space any time soon as too many people are opposed to it. However if the new warp mechanics allow for a substantial improvement on the ability to catch people at belts and titan bridging to some effect was rebalanced does anybody see a scanning down option for cloaked ships?


Not unless I can shoot whilst cloaked.

As it stands I can not do a god damned thing while i am cloaked.