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Suicide Ganker Defense for Miners - Thoughts
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Dez Carthis
Kanoi Industy Inc
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#1 - 2013-10-07 22:56:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dez Carthis
At some point or another - many hi-sec miners are victimized by Heathens - also called Suicide Gankers... I'll resist the temptation to name the offending Corp...

(I can see it already - "use a combat mining ship..." got it; and from the drone whisperers - "go fly an Exhumer instead" - sound argument ... moving on ... )

The Rant
Short of that, most barge miners are bound, gagged, generally defenseless & certainly compromised... (Whose idea was it to create a mining ship without dedicated guns anyway??? - In EVE no less... anyway... When mankind makes it to space mining we'll know better - Thanks EVE)

So please - at least give Barge miners a bee-bee gun - or a slot dedicated to an ECM module.

The Idea
> Allow Barges to overheat strip mining modules for use as a weapon
> If not - at least give us a dedicated ECM med-slot (I see prices for multi-spectrals going through the roof...)

Reasoning
> Allow miners to have slightly more time to run, fight back, or call for backup - ( Insert "Dear CONCORD" message here...)
> General idea is to buy some time...

Conditions
1) Can only be used against other (offending) Capsuleers, can't overheat to improve yield etc...
2) Did I say defensive capability yet? No? Defensive Capability - Cannot initiate combat
3) DPS from overheated strip miners is capped - It's a defensive weapon to buy precious seconds to align, split, or pray hard to CONCORD...
4) Same rules of Thermodynamics apply - overheat too long and bye bye rack.
5) Help me out here - I'm sure there are more good ideas out there

Requesting Your Thoughts
> It won't eliminate suicide gankers or the tactic, could even introduce small gang ganking tactics into hi-sec
> Not trying to make miners death-proof. Death and Destruction are part of the natural order... Ships must blow-up for the market to survive and all..
> But I'd love to hear your thoughts ... anything more than... "It'll never happen"

Cheers!

>> PS - I just recently stepped off the EVE learning cliff, not even halfway down - be kind :-P

In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order. ~ Carl Jung 
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-10-07 23:05:09 UTC
Dez Carthis wrote:
At some point or another - many hi-sec miners are victimized by Heathens - also called Suicide Gankers... I'll resist the temptation to name the offending Corp...

(I can see it already - "use a combat mining ship..." got it; and from the drone whisperers - "go fly an Exhumer instead" - sound argument ... moving on ... )

The Rant
Short of that, most barge miners are bound, gagged, generally defenseless & certainly compromised... (Whose idea was it to create a mining ship without dedicated guns anyway??? - In EVE no less... anyway... When mankind makes it to space mining we'll know better - Thanks EVE)

So please - at least give Barge miners a bee-bee gun - or a slot dedicated to an ECM module.

The Idea
> Allow Barges to overheat strip mining modules for use as a weapon
> If not - at least give us a dedicated ECM med-slot (I see prices for multi-spectrals going through the roof...)

Reasoning
> Allow miners to have slightly more time to run, fight back, or call for backup - ( Insert "Dear CONCORD" message here...)
> General idea is to buy some time...

Conditions
1) Can only be used against other (offending) Capsuleers, can't overheat to improve yield etc...
2) Did I say defensive capability yet? No? Defensive Capability - Cannot initiate combat
3) DPS from overheated strip miners is capped - It's a defensive weapon to buy precious seconds to align, split, or pray hard to CONCORD...
4) Same rules of Thermodynamics apply - overheat too long and bye bye rack.
5) Help me out here - I'm sure there are more good ideas out there

[b]Requesting Your Thoughts{b]
> It won't eliminate suicide gankers or the tactic, could even introduce small gang ganking tactics into hi-sec
> Not trying to make miners death-proof. Death and Destruction are part of the natural order... Ships must blow-up for the market to survive and all..
> But I'd love to hear your thoughts ... anything more than... "It'll never happen"

Cheers!

>> PS - I just recently stepped off the EVE learning cliff, not even halfway down - be kind :-P


Oh ****, I just realized how much easier its going to be to suicide gank now that catalysts go into and drop out of warp so much faster.

I can appreciate wanting to defend yourself against bankers with a weapon of some sort, but you'll only be able to attack once they've already shot you, and the DPS would have to be massive for you to make any appreciable difference in burning down a catalyst before you died.

Really the problem is CONCORD tbh, being unable to defend yourself or your fleet until you're already being shot is a terrible position to be in.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-10-07 23:32:17 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Really the problem is CONCORD tbh, being unable to defend yourself or your fleet until you're already being shot is a terrible position to be in.


You are able to defend yourself and your fleet in roughly 6/7ths of EVE. It's your fault for sticking in the one place where game mechanics don't allow you to.
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-10-07 23:42:57 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Really the problem is CONCORD tbh, being unable to defend yourself or your fleet until you're already being shot is a terrible position to be in.


You are able to defend yourself and your fleet in roughly 6/7ths of EVE. It's your fault for sticking in the one place where game mechanics don't allow you to.


Who are you even talking to?
Dez Carthis
Kanoi Industy Inc
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#5 - 2013-10-08 00:19:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Dez Carthis
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:


Oh ****, I just realized how much easier its going to be to suicide gank now that catalysts go into and drop out of warp so much faster.

I can appreciate wanting to defend yourself against bankers with a weapon of some sort, but you'll only be able to attack once they've already shot you, and the DPS would have to be massive for you to make any appreciable difference in burning down a catalyst before you died.

Really the problem is CONCORD tbh, being unable to defend yourself or your fleet until you're already being shot is a terrible position to be in.


Hmmm - I hear you ... Not be able to shoot first may be naive... If it flies then...

The general idea is to give miners somewhat of a chance... But if the overheated Strip Miner (Hot Gun) can only "shoot" while hot... It'll hardly be efficient or cost effective to go picking fights.... You'd be choosing between your High rack or your ship every time...

And what do you think of the dedicated jammer slot? Chance based - but provides an escape route nonetheless?

In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order. ~ Carl Jung 
Eli Kzanti
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-10-08 11:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Kzanti
[Procurer, Overtanked]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hobgoblin II x5


^ 100 DPS, 90k EHP. If you think that barge is defenceless you have another thing coming.

Food for thought, dont fit like a moron and you wont get ganked. Utilise the defences you have instead of asking for more and you wont get ganked.

In short, its not mining barges that is the problem, its you. Your suggestions are unnecessary, since you already have all of the defences you need... you just choose not to use them.
Auduin Samson
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-10-08 14:23:19 UTC
I once saw a Procurer with a pair of warp disputers and drones take down two bomber pilots that got cocky. I was once kinda-sorta ganked by an assault frig while in a procurer (I was still new to null and not quite used to the whole "dock up when you see neuts in local" thing)... He killed me, but it took three minutes to do so while we both just sort of stared awkwardly at one another and struck up a conversation. Procurers are beasts. Fly one and be smart if you're worried about gankers.
Dez Carthis
Kanoi Industy Inc
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#8 - 2013-10-08 14:56:33 UTC
Eli Kzanti wrote:
[Procurer, Overtanked]

^ 100 DPS, 90k EHP. If you think that barge is defenceless you have another thing coming.

>> Dez Edit > this I can see me using - thanks for input <<

Food for thought, dont fit like a moron and you wont get ganked. Utilise the defences you have instead of asking for more and you wont get ganked.

In short, its not mining barges that is the problem, its you. Your suggestions are unnecessary, since you already have all of the defences you need... you just choose not to use them.


Thanks for your input - suggestions are never unnecessary - unlikely? perhaps. Nonetheless I still learned from you so thanks!

I'll stop dreaming about my Ret having a convertible weapon then & Settle for a smaller ore hold - no promises on the suggestions tho... ;-)

In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order. ~ Carl Jung 
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-10-08 15:08:00 UTC
If the procurer were a bit faster, I would use it as a combat vessel. Mine has 90K EHP and does 120DPS with drones. By no means are they defenseless.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#10 - 2013-10-08 15:12:04 UTC
being able to shoot back doesn't stop you from getting blown up. Just fit more EHP.

Also, wrong subforum, send to Features & Ideas

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Katherine Raven
ALTA Industries
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#11 - 2013-10-08 18:03:05 UTC
Eli Kzanti wrote:
[Procurer, Overtanked]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hobgoblin II x5


^ 100 DPS, 90k EHP. If you think that barge is defenceless you have another thing coming.


You'll get to laugh hard in local when you get yourself a catalyst killmail. That fit is similar to the one we hand to our young miners. We drop one extender rig and put in a EM rig.

Still, the fit is solid. Experienced gankers who scan you first will more than likely just leave you be, if they don't scan you then you get to watch them blow up, and try for killing them. If they REALLY want you to blow up, you will of course, but it'll take quite a few of them. And that's just funny anyways.
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-10-08 18:27:12 UTC
Honestly your best defence is to just mine next to a Mackinaw or a Hulk. Anytime we're out ganking stuff, we'll always take an exhumer over a retriever or procurer.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#13 - 2013-10-08 18:35:25 UTC

A few points:

a.) A gun won't help you: When they attack, you must survive 20s until concord arrives. In order for a gun to truly help you, you need to quickly start destroying them (say 5 s per ship = 1000 dps gun). This would be excellent dps for a BS, and simply insanely powerful for a "mining barge"

b.) Blowing them up is not important... simply surviving the 20 seconds until concord arrives is. To do this, you can put on a tank (hard on some barges/exhumers), or you can roll with damage mitigation tools. ECM is the most effective when you get lucky, as a flight of EC-300's has a 33% chance of jamming a catalyst off the bat, and neutralizes that ship.

Really, there are options available to you. You just have to accept that you can be bullied out of your "Optimal setup in its optimal location" by other players. That is how EvE functions no matter which region you live in!

Auduin Samson
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-10-09 03:44:10 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

b.) Blowing them up is not important... simply surviving the 20 seconds until concord arrives is. To do this, you can put on a tank (hard on some barges/exhumers), or you can roll with damage mitigation tools. ECM is the most effective when you get lucky, as a flight of EC-300's has a 33% chance of jamming a catalyst off the bat, and neutralizes that ship.


Another important fact of procurers. Before static ice belts disappeared, I disappointed many a ganker that came after me. It's really easy to understate just how much of a beating these things can take.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#15 - 2013-10-13 16:26:11 UTC
Because of this it is corp wide suicide gank month. Thank you for your enthusiastic encouragement.
Fia Magrath
The Clown Inquisition
#16 - 2013-10-13 23:49:48 UTC
if you want to shoot back, park a combat toon that is in your corp next to your miner and alt tab when you get attacked. Much better effect than a weaponized barge would ever have.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2013-10-14 05:06:22 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
I can appreciate wanting to defend yourself against bankers with a weapon of some sort, but you'll only be able to attack once they've already shot you,

those darned bankers
Westar Egdald
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-10-14 11:11:45 UTC
Just fit a tank.
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#19 - 2013-10-14 16:37:44 UTC
Westar Egdald wrote:
Just fit a tank.


What is tank?...does give more yield for isk/hr while I watch hulu?
Haulie Berry
#20 - 2013-10-15 02:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Quote:
Short of that, most barge miners are bound, gagged, generally defenseless & certainly compromised...



You say this like it's an accident. Like someone at CCP is going to say, "Oops, our bad, el oh el! Yeah, mining barges were supposed to be a dual purpose mining vessel/combat juggernaut, but some jackass misplaced the design plans and we had to wing it and totes forgot to include the hardpoints and ECM suite."

It's not a bug, it's a ******* feature.