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Directional scan hull only...
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Mr Doctor
Therapy.
The Initiative.
#1 - 2013-10-07 13:03:40 UTC
Just a simple idea that could be rather interesting.....

Dscan, instead of showing the ship shows only the hull of anything off grid. It could be a Curse, but all your scanner will show is "Arbitrator Class". The exception would be any ship fitted with a probe launcher (reasonable that would increase its sensor ability) and possibly Interceptors since information is their game, those would get the current level of information. Another option would be intys and any ship with a probing bonus as it serves to reason they would have better sensors. I like uncertainty and you kind of get too much info currently. I want a super to fill his pants when he thinks 20 Broadswords are landing and 20 Ruptures come out of warp instead Lol

Could expand beyond ships to give less info on... the size of a can, warp bubble, name of a rat wreck etc.. Give players an idea of whats out there, but not a snapshot.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2 - 2013-10-07 13:07:36 UTC
Why should people be freely granted more anonymity rather than working to get anonymity?

This would also cause an imbalance between groups of ships as some have unique hulls, while others share.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2013-10-07 13:17:12 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Why should people be freely granted more anonymity rather than working to get anonymity?

This would also cause an imbalance between groups of ships as some have unique hulls, while others share.


You know Lucas I find that statement coming from you one of the most ironic things I've heard in a long time. Egads, giving more anonymity...and for free no less. Why that's horrible. Not like there is a free intel mechanic in game already...oh wait, damn nevermind.

Lol

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mr Doctor
Therapy.
The Initiative.
#4 - 2013-10-07 13:39:32 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Why should people be freely granted more anonymity rather than working to get anonymity?

This would also cause an imbalance between groups of ships as some have unique hulls, while others share.

Why should you be freely granted information without having to work to get it?

Yep unique hulls will be identifiable. Part of their charm.
Paul Panala
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-10-07 14:45:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Panala
If you are trying to make the game more realistic, then why not only identify class types, like Frig, Destroyer, Cruiser, and so on? I am not sure how losing the ability to tell the difference between a Merlin, Hawk and Harpy but still being able to see a Hookbill is in anyway a good thing.

I agree with the general idea of making intl in the game less perfect, but it needs to be done fairly.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#6 - 2013-10-07 14:47:54 UTC
not a bad idea.

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#7 - 2013-10-07 14:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Teckos Pech wrote:
You know Lucas I find that statement coming from you one of the most ironic things I've heard in a long time. Egads, giving more anonymity...and for free no less. Why that's horrible. Not like there is a free intel mechanic in game already...oh wait, damn nevermind.
Mr Doctor wrote:
Why should you be freely granted information without having to work to get it?
Yep unique hulls will be identifiable. Part of their charm.

But with this changed there wuld be no "work to get it". Most people would have no ability to identify ship type. You'd have to guess, or assume the worst.
This isn't a case of "hey, lets make the game more dynamic by making a decent mechanic" it another "lets **** a mechanic to make ganking easier". Apologies if I think it's easy enough to gank people. Now a module that would mask your ship type, that I could get behind. But freely masking ship types depending on your choice of hull, with no negative side effects? I think that would just make certain hulls more popular in PvP, while further relegating hulls that are unique.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-10-07 15:07:07 UTC
Paul Panala wrote:
If you are trying to make the game more realistic, then why not only identify class types, like Frig, Destroyer, Cruiser, and so on? I am not sure how losing the ability to tell the difference between a Merlin, Hawk and Harpy but still being able to see a Hookbill is in anyway a good thing.

I agree with the general idea of making intl in the game less perfect, but it needs to be done fairly.

I think it was Roime (and I'm willing to bet 100 ISK that a lot of people before him as well) who suggested that amount of info on ships from D-scan should depend on how far the target is. Or something.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2013-10-07 15:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
You know Lucas I find that statement coming from you one of the most ironic things I've heard in a long time. Egads, giving more anonymity...and for free no less. Why that's horrible. Not like there is a free intel mechanic in game already...oh wait, damn nevermind.
Mr Doctor wrote:
Why should you be freely granted information without having to work to get it?
Yep unique hulls will be identifiable. Part of their charm.

But with this changed there wuld be no "work to get it". Most people would have no ability to identify ship type. You'd have to guess, or assume the worst.
This isn't a case of "hey, lets make the game more dynamic by making a decent mechanic" it another "lets **** a mechanic to make ganking easier". Apologies if I think it's easy enough to gank people. Now a module that would mask your ship type, that I could get behind. But freely masking ship types depending on your choice of hull, with no negative side effects? I think that would just make certain hulls more popular in PvP, while further relegating hulls that are unique.


Just like you should be forced to work for your intel as well, instead of having it handed freely to you on a platter by the game mechanics (i.e. local), right?

Yeah, I bet your tune will change now. P

Sauce for the goose, +1 to the OP. Free intel via mechanics for everyone!!!

A module to mask your ship type!?!? Why I never.

Your gyrations here Lucas are becoming very amusing. No free intel for you, but free intel for me, right? Lol

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#10 - 2013-10-07 15:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
You already do not get a snapshot of what's there. Ships can be fit in different ways. Ships can be cloaked. Ships can position themselves outside of your dscan range.

If players want to mask their true capabilities, then it should be an active decision that has cost and consequences (such as fitting a cloak, or changing position). Forcing you to be on grid before knowing what you're even up against makes PVP less about planning and decision-making and more of a crapshoot. It's also likely to make people more afraid of fights as they assume the worst about a particular hull (I very well may decide to engage a Stabber, but probably not if it may be a Vagabond)
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#11 - 2013-10-07 15:27:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Just like you should be forced to work for your intel as well, instead of having it handed freely to you on a platter by the game mechanics (i.e. local), right?

Yeah, I bet your tune will change now. P

Sauce for the goose, +1 to the OP. Free intel via mechanics for everyone!!!

A module to mask your ship type!?!? Why I never.

Your gyrations here Lucas are becoming very amusing. No free intel for you, but free intel for me, right? Lol
Lol you seriously can;t get over parading your "nuke local" idea can you. This thread is not about that. So take it elsewhere, like back to your other thread, rather than derailing this one.

Making d-scan show hull type would make certain hulls by default better than others. That's utter nonsense. Even the idea of ship class rather than hull type is better than that.

But go ahead. Tell me how I want everything for nothing. You want to freely kill unarmed ships with no chance at failure. Internet tough guy right there people, give him a pat on the back.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#12 - 2013-10-07 15:30:00 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
You already do not get a snapshot of what's there. Ships can be fit in different ways. Ships can be cloaked. Ships can position themselves outside of your dscan range.

If players want to mask their true capabilities, then it should be an active decision that has cost and consequences (such as fitting a cloak, or changing position). Forcing you to be on grid before knowing what you're even up against makes PVP less about planning and decision-making and more of a crapshoot. It's also likely to make people more afraid of fights as they assume the worst about a particular hull (I very well may decide to engage a Stabber, but probably not if it may be a Vagabond)

QFT.
Making active decisions matter rather than simple tacking in a mechanic for the sake of it will always be better. And people will generally avoid the unknown, so this change would push for less PvP rather than more.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-10-07 16:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anomaly One
So the game should cater to make your life easier to catch people offguard, how stupid would it be to dscan a slasher and turns out to be a stiletto..


"nuke local" LOL go back to a wormhole.


I like how people think if local went away there would be more pvp, everyone would just pass through systems with no gate camps as fast as they can and only the idiots who already die now in their ratting carriers will continue to die.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2013-10-07 16:16:18 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Just like you should be forced to work for your intel as well, instead of having it handed freely to you on a platter by the game mechanics (i.e. local), right?

Yeah, I bet your tune will change now. P

Sauce for the goose, +1 to the OP. Free intel via mechanics for everyone!!!

A module to mask your ship type!?!? Why I never.

Your gyrations here Lucas are becoming very amusing. No free intel for you, but free intel for me, right? Lol
Lol you seriously can;t get over parading your "nuke local" idea can you. This thread is not about that. So take it elsewhere, like back to your other thread, rather than derailing this one.

Making d-scan show hull type would make certain hulls by default better than others. That's utter nonsense. Even the idea of ship class rather than hull type is better than that.

But go ahead. Tell me how I want everything for nothing. You want to freely kill unarmed ships with no chance at failure. Internet tough guy right there people, give him a pat on the back.


I find it amusing you talk out of both sides of your mouth.

On one hand free intel bad.

On the other free intel good.

Do you perchance have a third hand?

And no Lucas, I'm not going back to another thread. I like discrediting you in this one by pointing out this wild inconsistency on your part.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Eliza Loney
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-10-07 16:42:01 UTC
+1

I always thought it odd that D-Scan can pick up what ship type and even the electronic name of the ship, but not the pilot.

D-Scan should be hull only, by base type. There is no feasible way to tell what the name is from a D-Scan.

Look at a real life example. A mid 90's Dodge Neon looks 99% like

- Plymouth Neon
- Chevy Neon

Now from 100KM away they look the same, but are different up close ( even if in name only )


Same as D-scan. I can tell you there are x amount of x sized ships out there but I cannot tell you what the paint looks like until they are on grid.

Remove everything but hull type and range from D-scan, all other information should not be readable at that distance.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-10-07 21:48:39 UTC
I'd like to see different ships get different D-scan powers. There are so many things that could be done to change it up. You could have ships that can't narrow it down more than its size class. Some ships could be able to tell its tech level without being able to discern its hull. Some could tell its approximate direction with any specific degree of accuracy at the cost of not being able to tell its type as well, while some could get a better fix on type and attributes without knowing its direction, or maybe type and direction without distance.

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Matthias Thullmann
Dynatron Inc.
#17 - 2013-10-07 23:47:29 UTC
Mr Doctor wrote:
Why should you be freely granted information without having to work to get it?


You're right, from now on I say ships get a limited grid view range. Like 1000m.

To increase it you need modules, scripts and like 20 different skills which improve everything from sharpness to color.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2013-10-08 13:36:10 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'd like to see different ships get different D-scan powers. There are so many things that could be done to change it up. You could have ships that can't narrow it down more than its size class. Some ships could be able to tell its tech level without being able to discern its hull. Some could tell its approximate direction with any specific degree of accuracy at the cost of not being able to tell its type as well, while some could get a better fix on type and attributes without knowing its direction, or maybe type and direction without distance.


Hmmm, interesting. I wouldn't want this as a stand alone change though. Intel is already handed out for free on who is in system. You can check affiliations, age, and then with additional d-scan benefits you could find out even more. Granted you have to work for it with this set up, but I think people should have to work for most things in game.

After all, with all this technology why can't I have PI planets launch P1s up to the POCO when the space port is at 75% capacity? Why can't I program my drones to go after e-war type ships when doing PvE? Instead I have to do all these things, I have to work for those benefits. Intel should, in theory be the same way.

But the above has definite possibilities.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2013-10-08 13:45:11 UTC
Matthias Thullmann wrote:
Mr Doctor wrote:
Why should you be freely granted information without having to work to get it?


You're right, from now on I say ships get a limited grid view range. Like 1000m.

To increase it you need modules, scripts and like 20 different skills which improve everything from sharpness to color.


Actually, Mr Doctor's idea removes some free intel from people who already benefit substantially from free intel. A null sec PvE pilot has an absolute advantage over any hostile entrant to his system he is PvEing in. The PvE pilot will see the entrant well before the entrant will have time to load grid let alone do anything to even pose the slightest threat to the PvE pilot.

With the proposed change instead of see malediction on scan, you'd see...crap what is the t1 variant...ahh, executioner class. Does that make a difference? I don't know, probably not, but what the heck. Any watering down of the current intel mechanic people use in null is fine by me.

Mr Doctor simply turned around Lucas' criticism which is totally valid. Especially since Lucas is an ardent supporter (to put it mildly) of the free intel system we currently have.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#20 - 2013-10-08 13:52:04 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Matthias Thullmann wrote:
Mr Doctor wrote:
Why should you be freely granted information without having to work to get it?


You're right, from now on I say ships get a limited grid view range. Like 1000m.

To increase it you need modules, scripts and like 20 different skills which improve everything from sharpness to color.


Actually, Mr Doctor's idea removes some free intel from people who already benefit substantially from free intel. A null sec PvE pilot has an absolute advantage over any hostile entrant to his system he is PvEing in. The PvE pilot will see the entrant well before the entrant will have time to load grid let alone do anything to even pose the slightest threat to the PvE pilot.

With the proposed change instead of see malediction on scan, you'd see...crap what is the t1 variant...ahh, executioner class. Does that make a difference? I don't know, probably not, but what the heck. Any watering down of the current intel mechanic people use in null is fine by me.

Mr Doctor simply turned around Lucas' criticism which is totally valid. Especially since Lucas is an ardent supporter (to put it mildly) of the free intel system we currently have.
You're right.
Over ideas that support a single playstyle over others, I support the current intel. If you can find an actual balanced way of decreasing free intel, I'm all ears, but making it so certain hull types have a native intel advantage other others doesn't help for diversity.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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