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Where Does CSM Stand on the Somer Blink Employee Giveaway?

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#41 - 2013-10-07 06:55:11 UTC
Montmazar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
[quote=Manu Militari]

The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward.



When you see a beer company plastering their banners over a concert series, do you think that beer company really just cares that much about the community? I doubt it. I doubt it very much.


What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#42 - 2013-10-07 09:17:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
So... How do the ships themselves threaten the core workings of the game?
This has been explained many times over several threadnaughts now, but ok, I'll try once more:

The core element of Eve which sets it apart from other games is its sandbox nature where players can do (to a degree) whatever they want and compete with other players. Paraphrasing one of the higher-up devs recently (might have been Unifex): "The players are at the helm. They decide where the game goes." So in order to provide such a sandbox it is important that CCP does not unnecessarily meddle around with it. This means that in particular they can't mess with the inter-player competition by supporting one group of players. Somer is run for-profit within the sandbox and therefore in direct ingame competition with all kinds of similar lotteries, gambling or betting services. CCP directly supported Somer twice by giving them massive ingame valuables to auction off and by giving them the very valuable IScorps (those were worth ~20b a piece when Somer got them, it doesn't matter how much they'll be worth in a year when CCP has given out more, because of the secrecy people didn't even know back then that there would be so many more of them). On top of that they also endorsed the service and claimed that it's legitimate on the forums. All of this is directly supporting Somer and therefore directly hurting everyone competing with Somer. It's a distortion of competition and therefore damaging the very core of the sandbox.

The most fitting analogy is a sports game in which the referee is supporting one team and it doesn't matter if he does it because the team is so popular or because they're playing so well or because they provide him with profitable high-interest games. It also doesn't matter if the support is actually gonna change the game's result or not, a referee must stay impartial or the core of the game is damaged.

As players we are paying our subscriptions for a fair, level playing field, insofar that we're only competing with other players and we can do the same as all other players if we want to and invest the same effort. Once we are competing with CCP (or CCP-supported players) it becomes unfair and the game is basically rigged.

Malcanis wrote:
What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest.
This isn't church, it's sports. Call me naive, but I expect referees to be impartial, even if they might think it's in their enlightened self interest to support one of the teams. Which btw I don't believe it is, cause if people are leaving the game in droves because it became apparent that it's rigged then business might not be so great anymore.
Disco Soliloquy
Major Kong Freight
#43 - 2013-10-07 09:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Disco Soliloquy
Malcanis wrote:
Montmazar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
[quote=Manu Militari]

The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward.



When you see a beer company plastering their banners over a concert series, do you think that beer company really just cares that much about the community? I doubt it. I doubt it very much.


What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest.
The analogy was beer company equating to Somer Blink. Not beer company equating to CCP Games.

If CCP wants more player-driven content, reward the people that organize that content, not the people who are sponsoring it for their own profit-driven ends.

If Budweiser (Somer) sponsors breast cancer research (RvB Ganks), should the government (CCP) reward cancer researchers or should they reward Budweiser?
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#44 - 2013-10-07 09:35:36 UTC
I like it when people try to compare video games to reality. It lets me know who's entirely lost sight of the reality horizon.
Disco Soliloquy
Major Kong Freight
#45 - 2013-10-07 09:39:08 UTC
Abditus Cularius wrote:
I like it when people try to compare video games to reality. It lets me know who's entirely lost sight of the reality horizon.
CCP Games is real-life. And their flavour of community support is likewise.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#46 - 2013-10-07 09:55:16 UTC
Disco Soliloquy wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Montmazar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
[quote=Manu Militari]

The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward.



When you see a beer company plastering their banners over a concert series, do you think that beer company really just cares that much about the community? I doubt it. I doubt it very much.


What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest.
The analogy was beer company equating to Somer Blink. Not beer company equating to CCP Games.

If CCP wants more player-driven content, reward the people that organize that content, not the people who are sponsoring it for their own profit-driven ends.


I'm sure CCP will take your marketing advice on board.

For myself I'm confused because the goalposts have shifted so many times I'm not even sure what you're mad about now. Now it seems that it's OK for CCP to give community awards, you just disagree with the receipient of this particular award.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Montmazar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-10-07 09:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Montmazar
Malcanis wrote:
Montmazar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Manu Militari wrote:


The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward.



When you see a beer company plastering their banners over a concert series, do you think that beer company really just cares that much about the community? I doubt it. I doubt it very much.


What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest.



As noted above, you are missing the analogy entirely. So I'll dispense with analogies.

Nothing Somer does whatsoever is worth any reward.

Further, even if one did feel Somer deserves a reward for something, why should they be rewarded over their competitors? CCP giving things to one in-game entity over another competing in-game entity is known as favoritism and that exact thing was the genesis of the entire fake politician space job whose position you now so uselessly occupy.

edit:

[quote=Malcanis]Now it seems that it's OK for CCP to give community awards, you just disagree with the receipient of this particular award.


Congratulations, you have stumbled onto one of the relevant issues. Since you are having trouble with this, I will break down some others in a simple format

-favoritism (Somer has competitors)

-supplying items to what may very well be an RMT ring

-insider trading information passed to Somer

-Somer does not deserve anything in the first place
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#48 - 2013-10-07 10:00:27 UTC
Montmazar wrote:



As noted above, you are missing the analogy entirely. So I'll dispense with analogies.

Nothing Somer does whatsoever is worth any reward.


OK now we're getting to the gist of it.

What do you know about why Somer got the award? Why do you think your opinion carries weight in this matter?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Montmazar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-10-07 10:09:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Montmazar
Malcanis wrote:
Montmazar wrote:



As noted above, you are missing the analogy entirely. So I'll dispense with analogies.

Nothing Somer does whatsoever is worth any reward.


OK now we're getting to the gist of it.

What do you know about why Somer got the award? Why do you think your opinion carries weight in this matter?



Why does my opinion carry weight? Are we going back to the classic "CCP is a private company!!" as if that is some sort of shocking revelation? Are you kidding? My opinion has weight because I am a dissatisfied customer. CCP cares so much about dissatisfied customers, especially in regards to matters of favoritism and in-game give aways, that they once created something called the CSM.

Let me flip this: what do you think your job as CSM is?

As for your other question, I don't know anything about why Somer got the award, because Somer kept it secret, CCP kept it secret, and CSM representatives like yourself are incompetent.

I do know based on statements here that Cribba who would actually deserve a community award says he hasn't gotten anything like this, and I know from statements elsewhere that Eve Bet, a competitor, also says they haven't gotten them.

So it doesn't seem to be community service, despite what you and other CSMs have been trying to imply or occasionally outright state, because if so Chriba and others who actually do provide such services would have gotten one. And it does seem to be favoritism, because their competitor didn't get them.
Sar'ran Zorn
St. Albans' Refuge
#50 - 2013-10-07 10:13:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Why do you think your opinion carries weight in this matter?


Incarna taught him that if he's offended enough about inconsequential events in a video game, people who matter in the world will listen to him.

Mittens told him this is a good inconsequential event in a video game to be outraged about.
Montmazar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-10-07 10:15:18 UTC
Sar'ran Zorn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Why do you think your opinion carries weight in this matter?


Incarna taught him that if he's offended enough about inconsequential events in a video game, people who matter in the world will listen to him.

Mittens told him this is a good inconsequential event in a video game to be outraged about.


FYI, this would have more bite if you weren't nodding along with a internet space game politician.
Sar'ran Zorn
St. Albans' Refuge
#52 - 2013-10-07 10:17:16 UTC
I gotta ask - do you still get a special tickle when Mittens reaches up inside you to work the mouth, or are you just all wrecked down there?

I mean, with all the overuse lately, it's gotta be looking like a deflated innertube by now.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2013-10-07 10:24:24 UTC
Does your mother know you're up this early?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Rengerel en Distel
#54 - 2013-10-07 12:47:32 UTC
To get away from analogies, and everything else, I think the main point is that most players would rather CCP not give in-game things to individual groups at all, regardless of what that group has done. Community spotlights? Sure, I guess, though it should never have been for 3rd party RMT gambling sites. Want to make t-shirts for them at fanfest? Sure, great idea. Want to make Blink tokens to hand out at EVE Vegas? Super, doesn't change the balance in the game at all.

Want to give 30 ships to someone in private? Nope, because they now have a knowledge about the supply of the ships no one else has, leading to a direct in game advantage when selling them.

Want to give one site free ships to give to the community? Nope, because they have competition, and you're both endorsing them, and stating to the player base that they are in fact not a scam. You open yourself up for a tsunami of petitions if they ever do decide to just take everything they have and go away.

I can see why the CSM members who are hoping to get free swag themselves are backing CCP, but I'm not sure why the others are doing it beyond brown-nosing. It really is OK to disagree with CCP sometimes, some of them will still listen to you on other things.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
None ofthe Above
#55 - 2013-10-07 14:54:00 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Manu Militari wrote:
Since CCP has set the precedent of giving such rewards to community contributors they find worthy, such as Somer, maybe you all should get off your high horses and work to contribute in a similar manner. Yes, Somer is a for profit gambling site. Yes, Somer employees make ISK. But that does not detract from the contributions Somer makes for Eve. Feel free to contribute to the community in a profitable way and CCP may recognize you.

Somer sponsors some of the more high profile Eve media contributors in the game; PVP Videos, Podcasts, etc.
Somer sponsors many of the Eve CCP created and player created tournaments and prizes.
Somer sponsors community groups within Eve such as RvB.

Somer does a lot for the Eve community. Why is it that everytime CCP does something its always a scandal? CCP takes the Eve community seriously and Eve players seem to take that for granted and whine about every CCP action that benefits someone else.

There is nothing wrong with CCP rewarding Somer. They reward many small time bloggers with free Plex and Subscriptions on a regular basis. Considering Somer's contribution is proportionately larger so is their reward.

This just in: Marketing is charity.


This is not news, except to certain idealist young goons, apparently. I hate burst your innocence but much of funding for charitable and other "good works" comes from corporate coffers in an attempt to "give back". Much of the time, this a cynical attempt to reform their image.

Somer at least is giving back to it's community and attempting to help it grow.

It's perfectly reasonable that CCP would seek to reward and incentivize such activity. I hope it doesn't stop with Somer and goes around to others in turn.

It is reasonable for you and others to point out that there needs to be standards and transparency. But this growing mob is going beyond that and threatens to cripple CCP's ability to support the community. Please be reasonable.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
None ofthe Above
#56 - 2013-10-07 15:05:51 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
To get away from analogies, and everything else, I think the main point is that most players would rather CCP not give in-game things to individual groups at all, regardless of what that group has done. Community spotlights? Sure, I guess, though it should never have been for 3rd party RMT gambling sites. Want to make t-shirts for them at fanfest? Sure, great idea. Want to make Blink tokens to hand out at EVE Vegas? Super, doesn't change the balance in the game at all.

Want to give 30 ships to someone in private? Nope, because they now have a knowledge about the supply of the ships no one else has, leading to a direct in game advantage when selling them.

Want to give one site free ships to give to the community? Nope, because they have competition, and you're both endorsing them, and stating to the player base that they are in fact not a scam. You open yourself up for a tsunami of petitions if they ever do decide to just take everything they have and go away.

I can see why the CSM members who are hoping to get free swag themselves are backing CCP, but I'm not sure why the others are doing it beyond brown-nosing. It really is OK to disagree with CCP sometimes, some of them will still listen to you on other things.


Valid points on "insider knowledge" of market condition changes. Interesting point about the endorsement of Blink and potentially open themselves up to petitions about Blink's veracity.

I don't really buy that CSM is cowed or brown nosing. This CSM thinks for itself as far as I can see, and has raised some of these issues with CCP. They just don't happen to agree with you on completely at this time (well the ones you talking to here anyway, this CSM also has diverse opinions).

Keep it up with the good points and keep the insults to a minimum and maybe you can persuade them.

To be constructive, this conversation needs to turn to how to do this community building outreach better. Not just rage about how CCP dared to try to promote community growth and stumbled.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Bronco Platz
Doomheim
#57 - 2013-10-07 18:20:24 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Montmazar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
[quote=Manu Militari]

The timing was bad and the transparency was very poor indeed, but as such this is pretty straightforward.



When you see a beer company plastering their banners over a concert series, do you think that beer company really just cares that much about the community? I doubt it. I doubt it very much.


What is this, church? Of course CCP think that they'll get a commercial advantage by rewarding those who support the community. That is what we call enlightened self interest.


But to get a commercial advantage CCP had to make the reward formal and not in secret. I mean, if they don´t tell the People: "He! Do something for the community like Somer and you can get assests worth a lot of ISK, too!" there is no effect.

This is the point in this hole mess, I don´t understand.

This signature is under NDA. Sorry.
ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#58 - 2013-10-07 19:08:19 UTC
Wow this got outta hand.


Locked.

Please use this thread to discuss this issue.

ISD Cura Ursus

Lieutenant Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
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