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[Rubicon] Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers

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Author
Gorski Car
#41 - 2013-10-07 13:38:04 UTC
"Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity)." Please reconsider this. The damage application on hmls is pretty **** at the moment especially after that -10% explo velocity nerf.

The dps is horribad right now even against bcs if you assume the target is skirmish linked (standard now days deal with it.)

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Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#42 - 2013-10-07 13:42:33 UTC
Altrue wrote:
It would be wise to first take a look at heavy missiles. They were nerfed some time ago before the up of other medium-sized long-range weapons.

Now that these have been buffed again, I believe you CCP should first rebalance heavy missiles (I don't know for you but I never got to use them since the nerf) THEN tweak the stats of these RHML.
...
Edit 2 : Of course, finally having a tracking computer / enhancer / remote computer / disruptor equivalent for missiles would also be a good thing to consider before actually balancing the RHML.


Yeah. The modules are logical but could easily be OP with minor changes such as above.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Denuo Secus
#43 - 2013-10-07 13:48:14 UTC
Please reconsider to leave out the damage projection bonus. Without that bonus RHMLs become more or less a pure defensive weapon against smaller ships imho. To be used in an aggressive manner on a slow battleship damage projection is needed.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-10-07 13:58:30 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
"Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity)." Please reconsider this. The damage application on hmls is pretty **** at the moment especially after that -10% explo velocity nerf.

The dps is horribad right now even against bcs if you assume the target is skirmish linked (standard now days deal with it.)


Going to have to agree here. Precision Cruise hit pretty decently already and at around 100km on a Raven / CNR. Allowing the missile velocity / application bonus makes sense, otherwise there really is not much use for slotting these.
stoicfaux
#45 - 2013-10-07 14:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Sooo.. 12s rof for HML. 7.45 for RHML.

12 / 7.45 = 1.61. RHML has 61% moar DPS than HML. For the Raven with it's RoF bonus, that's 1.61 / .75 = 2.15 times the DPS of a standard HML. Or, 1.61 / .75 * 6 launchers = 12.9 effective HMLs. (CNR would be the same. Golem's 100% damage bonus won't apply, so this a Golem nerf.)

So... if you're a carebear who puts 4x CN BCUs on their Raven hulls, that's 339 DPS with Fury (not including reload time) * 2.15 = 728.9 DPS.

With 5% rof and dmg implants, that's 2.15 * 375 DPS = 806 DPS with RHMLs as they currently stand (sans ammo reloading.)

With 2xMissile Speed II and 1xFlight Time rigs, that's ~75km of range.


2 BCUIIs w/CN: 2.15 * 228 = 490
2 BCUIIs w/Fury: 2.15 * 267 DPS = 574
3 BCUIIs w/CN: 2.15 * 256 = 550
3 BCUIIs w/Fury: 2.15 * 300 DPS = 645

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#46 - 2013-10-07 14:03:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Confirming that the entire laser naming scheme is a bane to good grammar and to noobs trying to figure out what to fit.
[Edit: Oh, and the word "maser" is ****ing stupid.


Stupid or not, Masers are a thing.

More on topic, I will be interested to see the difference in applied DPS vs BC and smaller when using Cruises and when using RHMLs. Even if the Cruise has higher paper DPS, you won't need to double- and triple-paint things when using RHMLs. The only problem may be getting into their effective range with a slow, fat battleship. Perhaps a MWD may be of moderate assistance here. Why don't we have any MWD-bonused BS hulls? I suppose that's an entirely different topic.
GOB III
Adversity.
Hisec Miners
#47 - 2013-10-07 14:04:39 UTC
Does this mean that we can expect a rapid cruise phoenix in the future?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#48 - 2013-10-07 14:11:28 UTC
GOB III wrote:
Does this mean that we can expect a rapid cruise phoenix in the future?


Something that would make the Phoenix useful? Blasphemy!
Gorski Car
#49 - 2013-10-07 14:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorski Car
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#50 - 2013-10-07 14:19:42 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.


All I'm getting from this is they should nerf ABCs and links.
Rain6638
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#51 - 2013-10-07 14:33:07 UTC
just make the animation for each bay go "FwoomFwoomFwoomFwoomFwoom" like 6 missiles from each bay per cycle.

I don't care what the cycle time is, I just want an alpha barrage of missuls

...but also from my new kaalakiota draek, plox

[ 2013.06.21 09:52:05 ] (notify) For initiating combat your security status has been adjusted by -0.1337

Crysantos Callahan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-10-07 14:34:48 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
...
Forgot to mention something important - Battleships with Damage bonuses (like Raven and Typhoon rate of fire) will have those bonuses applied to the new launchers. Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity).


So no bonus on ships like the rattlesnake because it only gives velocity bonus or do we get a damage bonus for it? Just wondering, like the new launchers but to make it viable we need a bit of love for HM ;)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#53 - 2013-10-07 14:37:41 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
RLMLs are overpowered because light missiles are overpowered, but also just the role itself. We have these things called destroyers, which are supposed to kill frigates - it's what they do, and then the caracal comes along and does more damage at 5x the range, goes faster and has many times the tank.
Not sure why we need another class of ships that wrecks cruisers, we already have battlecruisers, and they're far more prominent than they probably should be.


TBH, my nanohawk with 4 lights isn't that far behind compared to a caracal. So it's at 160-170dps and lacking the selectable damage, but I fail to see how RLMLs are broken. They work well, as opposed to the heavies some derps keep on fitting, and are nowhere near HAM-dps against tackled/painted targets.

Seeing rapid heavies announced, those surely won't be as great as one would expect, as they are heavies with - what I've been told - unusable damage-application, nonexistant basedamage and crappy range.
X ATM092
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-10-07 14:40:28 UTC
TheFace Asano wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
"Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity)." Please reconsider this. The damage application on hmls is pretty **** at the moment especially after that -10% explo velocity nerf.

The dps is horribad right now even against bcs if you assume the target is skirmish linked (standard now days deal with it.)


Going to have to agree here. Precision Cruise hit pretty decently already and at around 100km on a Raven / CNR. Allowing the missile velocity / application bonus makes sense, otherwise there really is not much use for slotting these.

Could not agree more. You've gone to all this trouble creating a new weapon system and then made it complete trash by only letting people load trash ammo.
HardRockLife
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
#55 - 2013-10-07 14:42:44 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

That the same kind of continuity CCP has avoided like the plague when it comes to pulse lasers?


God, lasers make me so autistic. We have small focused lasers, and focused medium lasers, and we have both light lasers and small lasers. I don't remember which CCP guy thought this was a good idea. We also have pulse energy beams.


Confirming that the entire laser naming scheme is a bane to good grammar and to noobs trying to figure out what to fit.

[Edit: Oh, and the word "maser" is ****ing stupid.

Yeah sure think it stupid, its an acronym.
Much better than writing the whole thing out.
Also fun to use on bots and can be made from a microwave if you dont mind cooking yourself.
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-10-07 14:45:35 UTC
Looking at the ship bonus's, here is a run down by ship on which ones it makes sense on.

CNR: Won't fit as neither bonus applies.
Navy Scorp: Both bonus's apply as one is tank the other is rate of fire Cruise will still be better.
Raven: 1 out of 2 bonus apply, range is too short to want to equip because of lack of velocity bonus. Not really worth it.
Typhoon: 1 out of 2 bonus apply, application bonus would make this ship really stand out if it applied...
Fleet Issue Typhoon: This one could work as well as the missile bonus can be fully exploited
Golem: Well hopefully the +100 percent damage to bs missile launchers applies, this one would have been the best of them all if the application + range were applied. My guess bastion won't apply either....
Rattlesnake: missile velocity bonus won't apply. Another ship this would have been perfect for.
Armageddon: No actual missile bonus, a good fit, but inconsequential for the discussion because of lack of bonus.

As a backup system for ships like the Tempest / Tempest Fleet Issue these will be excellent.

So only 2 of the 7 bonused hulls will allow for full use of their missile bonus. With the recent nerf to HML application, these really have little to no value for most BS to even consider. Precision Cruise will apply damn near just as well as precision cruise to smaller targets, and much more dps / alpha to larger targets.

My suggestion would be to nerf the RoF slighty (seems a little too rapid in the first iteration), then allow for all bonuses to apply while giving heavy missiles a slight (5-10%) buff to explosion velocity. Then we have a compelling choice.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#57 - 2013-10-07 14:46:57 UTC
Could you nerf RLML's (and LML's for that matter) down to an acceptable state before you start copying the idea?


RLML's basically turn a Caracal into a 30k ehp destroyer.. that is also faster than the Caldari missile destroyer....

As it stands lml's are by FAR the best weapon system for kiting in frigates, it isn't even close to being a contest.


I think the missiles them selves need a nerf but i also think that RLML's should take more fittings, as it is you can way to easily overtank a rlml ship to compensate for the slight lack of dps.

And i'm saying this as someone who has quite enjoyed abusing rlml's.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#58 - 2013-10-07 14:50:22 UTC
Destoya wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Is a Rapid Cruise Missile Launcher on project for capitals ?


Right when other capitals get a 6x Tachyon/Rail weapon with half the DPS of current dread weapons but battleship tracking (hint: you dont want this)


Now the Phoenix is going to back to its corner and cry for a while. For a brief, shining moment, someone was thinking of it, but not anymore.

Poor Phoenix. :-(

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
The Birdhouse
#59 - 2013-10-07 14:58:47 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
A cruise phoon does 290 dps up to 74km with mjolnir precisions to a mwding Loki linked Talos. A rhml Phoon will do around 350 dps to the same Talos shooting mjolnir precisions but the range will only be 31km. For comparison, a Cerb shooting rapid lights with scourge fury will do 355 dps up to 80km.

This is of course just a example but still hml dmg application is pretty bad. The hml nerf was totally not needed.


All I'm getting from this is they should nerf ABCs and links.


cccc

**** tier 3s in their entirety.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#60 - 2013-10-07 15:14:04 UTC
rlm's are not op they are just very good

if you just nerf em slightly and overnerf em just by a tiny bit youll end up with HM's in their current state
cause it is exactly what happened to HM's.

the proposed LML's will only work if all bonuses apply if you are concerned about dmg tune down ROF a bit but plz make all bonuses apply else there is no fitting diversity and nearly no reason to fit them over cruises.