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Margin Trading Scams and Proposed Fixes
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Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#61 - 2013-09-13 14:15:32 UTC
Why does no one find it moderately suspicious when someone is selling a module for less than a buy order? What would that person gain for earning less isk and having to wait longer for said isk? To me, this applies to contracts that look too good to be true, and turn out to be scams. All the proposals here do is literally tell the person it's a scam, yet claim that people will still fall for it. If a newbie falls for it, they fell for it because they didn't listen to the tutorials (I almost certainly remember a tutorial mentioning being wary of "good deals" from scammers, pirates, etc., but I might be mistaken.) This thread seems to be full of people, who aren't new players, that fell for a scam and are using newbies as a scapegoat to change the system in their favor.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Mag's
Azn Empire
#62 - 2013-09-13 14:46:59 UTC
Turelus wrote:
I'm fully in support of anything to fix the margin trade scam.
I don't want to see all scamming removed from EVE as it is a part of it, however the margin trade scam has nothing to alert a playing to it being a scam unless they know about that exact scam.

ISK doubling, contract and item switch scams all have clear information or are based on trust in the party you're dealing with meaning the fault of falling for these scams is in the hands of the player who doesn't check them correctly.

Margin trade scams however have no indication at all and I have known many veteran players who have fallen for it because they had no idea it was possible. When you see something for sale for lower than someone is buying it you assume the market isn't open to abuse for scamming.

OP's ideas are a good trail of thought and better than most peoples requests to simply remove the skill from the game.
And the point you and others seemingly forget to mention, is that they have to buy an overpriced item first. Which just so happens to be something you CAN check.

If you wish to invest in the market, then a certain amount of knowledge is required. This does not mean taking that buy/sell order price, as your only piece of knowledge. It means looking closer at the market and checking if what you are buying, does in fact cost that much.

People dive into these deals, thinking they are getting a great deal and will make some good ISK of another pilot. But in a market that is PvP based, they have bested you due to your lack of due diligence.

TL: DR: Don't blame the Margin Trader Skill, if you paid over the odds for an item without getting all the relevant information first.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-10-04 23:12:17 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
I'll be honest. My personal view is, that the skill is working fine as it is. Though increased broker fees in general would probably be a good thing.

All risks connected to the margin trading skill are just general risks of doing business in EVE. They fit perfectly well with the overall design of the game when it comes to trading.

If you have been scammed and want to have revenge, get the required intel and strike back with any means you deem appropriate.

If you can't be bothered, just deal with it.



I disagree. What is the risk for the person placing the buy order? If noone buys, he can simply cancel the order and get his isk back.

The Margin trading skill is broken and not being used as intended. They need to either get rid of it, or make a mechanic that allows it to work. Im all for scamming in EVE, but using the actual in game market to do so is a bit much. The market should pretty much be locked down tight by the Devs. They got 5 real time economists watching the the EVE market yet due to a loophole, you bypass all the monitoring/mechanics.

Also, the fact that you cant SEE who is scamming you is even more ridiculous. At least with Contracts, I know who I am dealing with before hand. With Margin Trading, I have no idea until after the fact. It' not hardcore, it's not brutal, it's not EVE, it's just stupid.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#64 - 2013-10-05 00:07:15 UTC
Quote:
The Margin trading skill is broken and not being used as intended.


They have outright stated that it is, actually. Ever few months or so though, some new dumbass dredges up the topic again anyway.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#65 - 2013-10-06 23:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Personally i find scams unpleasant, however.... Eve is also a fascinating social experiment too and that i do find very interesting,what happens and how do people behave when offered a universe where the restrictions that we grew up with are removed or subtly modified. We learn this if we move to another country and the laws we know are different with new risks and opportunities, some thrive and some lock the door and dream of going home.
There is no doubt we are in a different universe and that is made very very clear, what sort of person will you be when you actually have the restrictions removed? You can learn a lot about yourself and be very suprised,
The only thing that is missing is a good revenge mechanic that lets you go after the main and not the alt then we can really discover how nasty we can be. There are definitely some i would like to go thermonuclear on..... Just for the lutz.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#66 - 2013-10-07 00:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
A follow on , don't feel bad about getting caught, there are so many scams, some downright sneaky and some quite intelligent, I myself fell into a well planned intelligent version of this, he placed a buy order in one region and a sell order in another station (actually 5 of them) in the next region so you feel that you have gained a trading advantage, he wasn't greedy 2 or 3 million per unit. He did dozens a day so it looked right in the buy history until you went to sell.......thankfully i only tried one rather than filling my cargo hold as something did not smell quite right.....
Hey at least you can sell it where you bought it for a small loss.
However greed will get you every time........

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Judith Frozenvoid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-10-07 05:27:14 UTC
let the buyer and the seller beware.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-10-07 08:25:15 UTC
The only change that needs to happen to margin trading is if the buyer doesn't have the money, the seller shouldn't lose the goods. If that is how it already works, then ignore me.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#69 - 2013-10-07 12:21:00 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The only change that needs to happen to margin trading is if the buyer doesn't have the money, the seller shouldn't lose the goods. If that is how it already works, then ignore me.
Then I'll ignore you.
(Since yes, it already works like that. You don't get what you don't pay for.)
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#70 - 2013-10-07 12:42:32 UTC
boy this thread delivers...

I should buy an Ishtar.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#71 - 2013-10-07 12:49:50 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
However greed will get you every time........


This, so very much this ... both in game and out (amirite, CCP Blink)


Only acceptable fox for the margin trading scam is "If it looks too good to be true, it is"

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#72 - 2013-10-07 13:04:51 UTC
While I don't agree that margin trading needs a "fix", it really is just people falling to greed, I do wonder why margin trading is still as it is. Mainly because EVE tends to drive player involvement, while margin trading contrast starkly against it. Margin trading is essentially a safe way of borrowing isk to pre-order goods. Why is margin trading an automatic function, rather than a player driven mechanic? A player driven mechanic would require players to earn trust in order to do things, the way it should be. With the current system, any character training the skills is automatically granted that trust. It feels to me no different from the idea of an eve NPC bank, which people are usually against as it removes player driven content.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#73 - 2013-10-07 13:20:56 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
While I don't agree that margin trading needs a "fix", it really is just people falling to greed, I do wonder why margin trading is still as it is. Mainly because EVE tends to drive player involvement, while margin trading contrast starkly against it. Margin trading is essentially a safe way of borrowing isk to pre-order goods. Why is margin trading an automatic function, rather than a player driven mechanic? A player driven mechanic would require players to earn trust in order to do things, the way it should be. With the current system, any character training the skills is automatically granted that trust. It feels to me no different from the idea of an eve NPC bank, which people are usually against as it removes player driven content.



I think it's mostly because the market itself is "outside" of the players hands (i.e. it's run by the NPC brokers).

That said, I believe the player created and run bulk trade mailing list/channel allows for buying on margin (and futures as well)...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-10-07 13:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: The Spod
Margin trading scam is simply an exploit; for all purposes the game mechanics should not allow a trade to fizzle if you see the isk on buy order you should expect to get it. The integrity of the market requires it.

The issue naturally is with differentiating phases of the scam as the heist happens in a different trade to the margin fizzle. There is nothing wrong with putting out overpriced stuff. There is definitely everything wrong in putting out overpriced buy orders with the knowledge it won't come to fruition.

CCP has to rule knowledgeably setting up fizzling orders an exploit first and foremost. Then handle it case by case with banhammer ultimatums. This moves the risk to margin trader, not the one who thinks he can sell stuff to buy orders at the specified price (as he should be able to).

Manually doing the bait and recall is not an exploit but for all purposes can go under the banhammer with no detrimental impact to the game.

Automated prevention mechanics can probably be exploited in another form:
• Isk generation through negative wallet
• Recycling wallets
• Faking scams offensively
...

EDIT: the burden of knowing the rules has to be foremost on the scammer by common sense. (playstyles) A market tourist doesn't have to think whether a buy order is an exploit, the scammer should have this burden.

If you do margin trade and someone offensively reports you as a scammer or sets up margins to report overpriced stuff as scams, the risk on you for overpricing stuff is not as bad for the game as a risk for someone thinking he can sell stuff to buy orders. Overpricing stuff as an action is worse than trusting a market buy order.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#75 - 2013-10-07 14:05:31 UTC
The Spod wrote:
Margin trading scam is simply an exploit; for all purposes the game mechanics should not allow a trade to fizzle if you see the isk on buy order you should expect to get it. The integrity of the market requires it.

The issue naturally is with differentiating phases of the scam as the heist happens in a different trade to the margin fizzle. There is nothing wrong with putting out overpriced stuff. There is definitely everything wrong in putting out overpriced buy orders with the knowledge it won't come to fruition.

CCP has to rule knowledgeably setting up fizzling orders an exploit first and foremost. Then handle it case by case with banhammer ultimatums. This moves the risk to margin trader, not the one who thinks he can sell stuff to buy orders at the specified price (as he should be able to).

Manually doing the bait and recall is not an exploit but for all purposes can go under the banhammer with no detrimental impact to the game.

EDIT: the burden of knowing the rules has to be foremost on the scammer by common sense. (playstyles)



So, what you're saying is that if my order for 300 million isk worth of Trit I set up last month falls through because someone entirely filled a billion ISK worth of other mins unexpectedly ... I get classed as "exploiting" the system and a banhammer?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-10-07 14:26:57 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
The Spod wrote:

CCP has to rule knowledgeably setting up fizzling orders an exploit first and foremost. Then handle it case by case with banhammer ultimatums.


So, what you're saying is that if my order for 300 million isk worth of Trit I set up last month falls through because someone entirely filled a billion ISK worth of other mins unexpectedly ... I get classed as "exploiting" the system and a banhammer?



Nope. See the non satiric short quotation above.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#77 - 2013-10-07 14:36:36 UTC
ah ... so, how is CCP supposed to determine whether or not it's "willfully not having enough ISK" then?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#78 - 2013-10-07 14:42:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
The only change I'd make to margin trade is adding a column to state the amount in escrow for the order (probably as a %). It's not unrealistic to have that information, and it would not stop stupid people falling for trade scams.

See the problem with margin trading is that coming from other games, you won't know about it until after you've been scammed (or if you've read up on it specifically). It's not a common thing in games and it's never explained, so you are assumed to know that an order can fail. By adding a column to show the amount in escrow people would see it and say "I wonder what that means" then go find out. That doesn't mean an order with less than the full amount in escrow is a scam, it would just give you the information you need to make informed decisions.

tl;dr
MT scams prey on lack of knowledge about game mechanics. Providing information that points to those mechanics allows a player to educate himself before falling prey to one, if he so wishes.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Decian Falx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-10-07 23:40:19 UTC
The only thing that needs to be done to margin trading is making the 'fail' point the value of the sell order rather than the buy order.

Example:

Scammer has an item listed for 50m, buy price at 100m in Dodixie, minimum 5 items. Actual value of 1m. You go to Jita, pick up 5 of the items for 5 million.

You return to Dodixie, manually set the sell price to 24m each (minimum required in escrow w/ margin trading 5, at buy price of 100m). You press sell, the escrow alone covers the 24m*5=120m.

If you try this currently, the order fails anyway: It *seems* to check whether the scammer has the full offered amount rather than the amount asked.

In practical terms, this would mean it is risky (but NOT impossible) to scam people for more than about 4x the value of an item. The more money the scammer puts on the table, the more incentive for someone to counterscam them.

This is how it SHOULD be. The scam should not be impossible but bigger risks should mean bigger rewards.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#80 - 2013-10-08 05:58:51 UTC
Decian Falx wrote:
You return to Dodixie, manually set the sell price to 24m each (minimum required in escrow w/ margin trading 5, at buy price of 100m). You press sell, the escrow alone covers the 24m*5=120m.

If you try this currently, the order fails anyway: It *seems* to check whether the scammer has the full offered amount rather than the amount asked.


It does work like that. But you're not the first to think of that trick.

Buy order for 10, minimum 5, 100m/unit. Total order is 1b, escrow is 240m.
Sell 5 to the order at 48m/unit. Total order is now 500m, escrow is now 0 ISK.

Now start spamming your 80m/unit sales contract.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon