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Kronos needs a damage bonus buff
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Alexandria Aesirial
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2011-11-16 00:38:40 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
[quote=Pookoko]I'm talking about Kronos, not Vindicator :p


- You didn't factor in how well each ship performs against the various factions. For instance, the Golem and Vargur both have pretty decent damage type selection, but running a Paladin against Angels/Guristas is a lesson in frustration.

-Liang


I used to run missions in a nightmare in amarr space and I get the AE mission once in a while. My nightmare fitted with tachys handles the mission pretty well when compared to a mach using ACs.

It's only blobbing when you lose, otherwise it's good fleet comp.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#22 - 2011-11-16 00:42:31 UTC
Alexandria Aesirial wrote:

I used to run missions in a nightmare in amarr space and I get the AE mission once in a while. My nightmare fitted with tachys handles the mission pretty well when compared to a mach using ACs.


Huh, when I was running missions out in Stain I had exactly the opposite experience. And I don't mean by a little bit... dramatically different[

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#23 - 2011-11-16 00:45:34 UTC
Liang those are too many variables - i do agree that a proper comparison should factor in all the points you've mentioned, but i guess i just wanter a quick something to throw out to initiate a diacussion. So thanks for responding with more details and chipping in.

Perhaps we should put Golem aside for now, as it is the only missile boat and as auch operates differently from all the others.

Considering rat types here is what i think-

vs Sepentis : Kronos fares well, but I do not feel that nightmare or vargur perform any less in this regard, considering nightmare getting same damage bonus i'm assuming paladin would fare similarly (correct me if i'm wrong)

My gripe is that Kronos doesnt outperform paladin or vargur vs. Serpentis in a way that Vargur and Paladin outperform Kronos vs. Angel and Sansha respectively, and also, with all skills maxed t1 Domi could actually ouyperform Kronos (might give different picture with damage implants though)

Drones : I didnt factor them in as they all get same bandwidth and none of them gets bonus to drones.

Ranges: Here Kronos actually has some advantage over Vargur, as vs Serpentis it can fight in its optimal most of the time. But this is also a mixed bag as some of yhe serpentus rats close in like blaster boats while some like to stat at over 40km at which Kronos could potentially outdamage Vargur. Maybe here more realiatic comparison can be made using mission conpletion times instead of eft numbers.

This probably as much as i can say for now cuz to be honest i dont have time anymore to run a lot of missions anymore to get large enough sample size to compare completion times meaningfully. :(
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2011-11-16 13:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Liang Nuren wrote:
Pookoko wrote:
I'm talking about Kronos, not Vindicator :p

Anyways, got home to play with the winter expension version of EFT now and here is the comparison for all 4 marauders at equal settings

4 x highest tier guns/missile launchers + 3 x faction damage mod + 1 x T2 rate of fire rig + short range T1 ammo (non faction)

1. Golem 947 DPS (more realistic number would be 873 considering Golem would more likely have missile range rigs instead)

2. Vargur 876 DPS (using 800 ACs)

3. Paladin 864 DPS (using Tachs)

4. Kronos 759 DPS (using 425mm)

This is what I was talking about. If Kronos' DPS came to around 820 or so, I would say fair enough, someone has to come last right? But the difference is just way too big, and it's not like Kronos gets a drone advantage as a gallente ship since all marauders have same bandwidth.


A few comments:
- Its a mistake to not use T2/Faction ammo where appropriate. You can't get a full picture of how the ship will perform without factoring it in. Here's a somewhat old rundown of my opinion on the subject: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/on-t1-vs-faction-ammo/
- Factoring in 5% hardwirings can change everything - for instance a ship that gets 1000 DPS with no drones will benefit far more than a ship that gets 1000 DPS with half of it being drones. You should totally include them (or 3% at the very minimum).
- You didn't specify fits, so the comparison is kinda meaningless. You should really use the "standard" Marauder fits - which means 4 BCUs and missile range rigs on the Golem. At any rate, how well you apply DPS is a key metric in how effective you are as a mission runner.
- You didn't factor in the idea of how much DPS you do at various ranges. This can be make or break, and the Vargur's ability to not have to switch ammo from long->close range at 40km is kinda a big deal for convenience.
- You didn't factor in how well each ship performs against the various factions. For instance, the Golem and Vargur both have pretty decent damage type selection, but running a Paladin against Angels/Guristas is a lesson in frustration.

-Liang


- faction ammo is not really useful if you are not just blitzing for LP or fly a ship with lasers or artillery, also the Formulas don't account for the rof, what makes you spend considerable more rounds with quick firing rails(1-1.5k) or acs(2.5-3.5k)
- the Kronos relays the most of them on Sentry drones, to beef up his substandard DPS, so damage imps have the least effect on it
- the numbers look reasonable to assume 3 damage mod fittings on all of them
- dps lose to falloff is hardly a big deal on the Vargour within 50km and the higher tracking of his short range guns makes it actually a bit better than the numbers would suggest sub 50km, you hardly have to switch to anything else than antimatter if you run the Kronos with 2 TCs outside of sniping stuff at and beyond 100km
- the pala makes up for his weaknesses against some factions(it is mostly Guristas and they are annoying for anybody more by her jamming than anything else) by the awesomeness of Tachs, the Kronos doesn't

In my opinion it simply lacks the drone bay for 5 sentrys and some spares against frigs, what would easily bring the dps up by 100.
Alara IonStorm
#25 - 2011-11-16 14:56:11 UTC
Pookoko wrote:

Even with the buff to rails it will still do like 100 less dps than other marauders.

Found your problem, you are trying to make a ship with a long range weapon out DPS Ships that use short range weapons.

If you want the Kronos buffed you should be asking for it to be buffed into an effective mission Blaster Platform like it was supposed to be if the Web Bonus is any indication.

Not try to make it more suited to the bastardized fits we are stuck with. Because at that point you might as well remove the Web Bonus and replace it with something that would help Rails =/
Songbird
#26 - 2011-11-16 15:09:43 UTC
I like the sentry drones idea , that is unless they wanna add 600mm rail that's on even footing with the tachs
Kartaugh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-11-16 15:47:46 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Because at that point you might as well remove the Web Bonus and replace it with something that would help Rails =/


This....a thousand times this.

"It's not that I am afraid to die. I just don't want to be there when it happens." - Boris Grushenko
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2011-11-16 16:17:35 UTC
Kartaugh wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Because at that point you might as well remove the Web Bonus and replace it with something that would help Rails =/


This....a thousand times this.


The web bonus is actually quite useful for a stationary rail/sentry platform like the Kronos, since it helps to keep the DPS up against ships within 15km, only leaving like 10km(15-25km) where the low tracking combined with the low damage of rails is a issue.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#29 - 2011-11-16 18:23:57 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:

- faction ammo is not really useful if you are not just blitzing for LP or fly a ship with lasers or artillery, also the Formulas don't account for the rof, what makes you spend considerable more rounds with quick firing rails(1-1.5k) or acs(2.5-3.5k)
- the Kronos relays the most of them on Sentry drones, to beef up his substandard DPS, so damage imps have the least effect on it
- the numbers look reasonable to assume 3 damage mod fittings on all of them
- dps lose to falloff is hardly a big deal on the Vargour within 50km and the higher tracking of his short range guns makes it actually a bit better than the numbers would suggest sub 50km, you hardly have to switch to anything else than antimatter if you run the Kronos with 2 TCs outside of sniping stuff at and beyond 100km
- the pala makes up for his weaknesses against some factions(it is mostly Guristas and they are annoying for anybody more by her jamming than anything else) by the awesomeness of Tachs, the Kronos doesn't

In my opinion it simply lacks the drone bay for 5 sentrys and some spares against frigs, what would easily bring the dps up by 100.


Comments:
- The formulas absolutely do account for ammo used. Faction ammo is worthwhile on all marauders - even on the AC Vargur (which I specifically used as an example). It is silly to claim you shouldn't use faction ammo on a rail Kronos.
- You claim that damage implants affect it least because it has to use sentries, but that's just wrong. If anything, they would affect it least because it has less overall DPS. Consider that 10% of 1000 is 100% more than 10% of 500.
- It is not reasonable to assume anything beyond what is widely considered to be the best fit. Comparing the ships with 0 damage mods or with 100 damage mods each isn't meaningful when they're all fit slightly differently.
- Claiming the DPS loss to falloff on a Vargur is hardly a big deal really shows your ignorance.
- Claiming that Tachs make it easier to kill Guris with the Paladin than the Kronos is... well, ******* hilarious. With your stated DPS numbers, the Kronos today outdamages the Paladin by at least 20% against EM strong enemies.

I'm not arguing that the Kronos is great. I'm just saying that the comparison as setup is ******* useless.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#30 - 2011-11-16 23:49:41 UTC
When you graph the DPS profiles the results are pretty obvious to me.
For those of you who suggest these ships should be compared with either all short-range, or all long-range weapons, that comparison would be useless.
Nobody uses Arties on the Vargur.
Nobody uses Blasters on the Kronos.
Some people have said they use Tachs on the Paladin, but I'm not sure why.
T2 Pulses out-perform them in every way as far as I can tell.
With Multi loaded the Pulses do WAY more DPS than Tachs out-to 23km, and with Scorch they do about 10dps less and have 10km more optimal. With instant ammo-switching, it seems like a no-brainer to me. Maybe I'm missing something though...

Anyway, what it really boils-down-to is each ship has a particular mission-type that it accels-at.
For any mission where the rats have low EM/Therm resists, Paladin is the hands-down winner. It does more DPS than the Varg with Multi, and can switch to Scorch (instantly) for long-range rats.
For close-range when the rats have high EM/Therm resists, the Vargur.
For long-range when the rats have high EM/Therm resists, the Kronos. (Sometimes the Paladin is still better here if the rats have High-ish Kin resists too.)

Obviously I have over-simplified it a little, but for the most-part, this holds true.
Here are the DPS profiles on a graph:
I set-up a situation where they are firing at a BS sized target, flying away, with the target chasing at a slight transversal.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e9/sydneyACE/EVE/Marauder.jpg

The fits are as follows:
No drones, as they all have the same bandwidth and bay-space.
I used Faction Ammo.
This is with a 5% implant for dmg.

[Paladin, PVE] *Red Line*
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Energy Collision Accelerator I
Large Energy Burst Aerator I



[Kronos, PVE] *Green Line*
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II

LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I



[Vargur, PVE] *Blue Line*
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets
X-Large Shield Booster II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Invulnerability Field II
[empty med slot]

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

If you feel I have made a grave fitting-error, please let me know, and I will revise.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#31 - 2011-11-16 23:55:17 UTC
Sydney Nelson wrote:

Some people have said they use Tachs on the Paladin, but I'm not sure why.


Missions that have EM weak rats tend to start at a pretty substantial range. Range is kinda important and tracking is basically a non-issue.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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