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CSM Statement on the SOMER Promotion (with reply from CCP Pokethulu)

First post First post
Author
Abulurd Boniface
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#241 - 2013-10-05 15:57:13 UTC
ShipsOfEve wrote:
my soul is torn on this issue but good to see the community discussing this like adults.


An issue arose. Mistakes were made. The community voiced its concerns [in its own uniquely charming way]. Our representatives did a great job representing our views. There was communication between the player base and the publisher of this here awesome content.

CCP have shown themselves amenable to a rightful grievance and is addressing the issue.

It stands to reason for CCP to reward fan sites that are important to many players, as Somer Blink arguably is.

At the same time this -is- a player-run for-profit enterprise. It's really not that smart of CCP to give even the appearance of favoritism.

Here's an alternative: instead of always handing out these legacy/super expensive and rare ships to interested parties, why not give them something else instead? Why not, as a for instance, a clutch of battleships, t1 versions. 2 of each faction to all the people who are entitled to them.

That's still a really nice prize, and they're really only good to be fitted and sent out into space, there eventually to be blown up. It's not so expensive and rare that it hurts our sensitivities, it's also a meaningless prize. These are actual battleships, a lot of them. The prize has value, but nobody's going to start a devious ploy that lasts a year to get hold of these puppies.

CCP may want to consider prizes that are 'good enough', a nod of recognition "Good job, people. Here's some encouragement as a token of appreciation for your hard work." It's the thought that counts. "I was involved in [community experience] and CCP gave all of us a string of [space frame]." If you get a Ford F-150 as a prize, it's not exactly a Ferrari, it's still a car, right?

By handing out the really fancy space candy CCP runs the risk of showing preference, where they really only wanted [or so I presume] to promote community. A clutch of battleship space frames would have worked just as well for that purpose. It's an action that resulted in the exact opposite of what they wanted to achieve.

Maybe they should hire me to offer a voice in these matters. I wouldn't even mind living in Reykjavik [far from it].
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#242 - 2013-10-05 16:51:50 UTC
Tao Dolcino wrote:
Argus Sorn wrote:
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Argus Sorn wrote:

P.S. And for the love of god, stop witch hunting the CSM on this. Look to Somer and CCP as that is where the problem is. Boycott Somer and demand better of CCP.


A witch hunt would be like going after people who sign their posts. This is a legitimate expression of concern that the people elected to the CSM may not understand why it is they are actually there.



I get your point and you are entitled to your opinion. However I think it has derailed the discussion from something which seems more concerning to me, and that is CCP gifting isk to EVE players because they think that their gambling site is nifty.



As much as i agree with all the rest of your post, which is excellent, i don't agree about the CSM : it is linked.
If there is, as you say and as we are a growing number of players saying, a very concerning problem with CCP, it's the CSM's job to stand and fight at our side, for the CSM has been precisely created in similar circumstances to avoid that it happens again.
The answers the CSM members have given to us so far are very disappointing. But don't worry, i think that no one here forgets that the top priority is to make CCP stop their shady practises and start to respect their paying customers.



Absolutely you are right and I am not trying to say people are wrong in feeling/finding the CSM at fault here. I did not mean to be dismissive of people's concerns over the CSM side of this. I guess I am just more interested in seeing us as the players make our voice heard regarding this sort of favoritism. CCP has basically endorsed SomerBLINK, thereby providing them with in game and out of game value. It is a profit making entity. So now CCP is giving isk benefits to profit making entities in EVE? Combined with the scorpion scandal - this is a BIG deal. I am surprised it has not gotten more momentum, perhaps because of the timing.

The fact is in business, you avoid looking like a complete fool by avoiding ALL THINGS that may even have the slightest hint of favoritism, bias or impropriety. CCP and Somer have failed to do this. CCP has basically endorsed a player run entity and Somer has accepted that endorsement. CCP has then rewarded them what amounts to a contract to run a lottery on their behalf and given them prizes for a job well done. They have given ISK to SomerBLINK. Somer should have refused to accept the ships, the endorsement, and the scorpion gifts if they wanted to remain a legitimate player run organization. They are now working for CCP.

CCP also has stated that BLINK is 100% trustworthy. I can only assume that this means, that every bit of isk is accounted for, and that even the isk that has been paid out to employees has not in some way been involved in EULA violations such as RMT, account sharing, botting activity, etc.. If not, CCP has gone out on a big limb by announcing that they are 100% trustworthy.

But let's be clear. These contracts, endorsements and gifts basically blur the line between CCP and a player run organization. When you give your ISK to SomerBLINK, you are giving it to CCP. When you pay CCP, you are paying them to provide BLINK with isk. Think about that/

Scooter McCabe
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#243 - 2013-10-05 16:57:28 UTC
Abulurd Boniface wrote:
ShipsOfEve wrote:
my soul is torn on this issue but good to see the community discussing this like adults.


An issue arose. Mistakes were made. The community voiced its concerns [in its own uniquely charming way]. Our representatives did a great job representing our views. There was communication between the player base and the publisher of this here awesome content.

CCP have shown themselves amenable to a rightful grievance and is addressing the issue.

It stands to reason for CCP to reward fan sites that are important to many players, as Somer Blink arguably is.

At the same time this -is- a player-run for-profit enterprise. It's really not that smart of CCP to give even the appearance of favoritism.

Here's an alternative: instead of always handing out these legacy/super expensive and rare ships to interested parties, why not give them something else instead? Why not, as a for instance, a clutch of battleships, t1 versions. 2 of each faction to all the people who are entitled to them.

That's still a really nice prize, and they're really only good to be fitted and sent out into space, there eventually to be blown up. It's not so expensive and rare that it hurts our sensitivities, it's also a meaningless prize. These are actual battleships, a lot of them. The prize has value, but nobody's going to start a devious ploy that lasts a year to get hold of these puppies.

CCP may want to consider prizes that are 'good enough', a nod of recognition "Good job, people. Here's some encouragement as a token of appreciation for your hard work." It's the thought that counts. "I was involved in [community experience] and CCP gave all of us a string of [space frame]." If you get a Ford F-150 as a prize, it's not exactly a Ferrari, it's still a car, right?

By handing out the really fancy space candy CCP runs the risk of showing preference, where they really only wanted [or so I presume] to promote community. A clutch of battleship space frames would have worked just as well for that purpose. It's an action that resulted in the exact opposite of what they wanted to achieve.

Maybe they should hire me to offer a voice in these matters. I wouldn't even mind living in Reykjavik [far from it].



You've completely missed the point on my its bad for CCP to give one group of players something at the exclusion of everyone else. It doesn't matter if its a Titan or a pile of ammo. I'm amazed that in your own analogy of handing out a Ford versus a Ferrari that you somehow hit the nail on the head that a car is being handed out either way but miss why its a problem. Just because one thing is nicer? Its not a company favoring a group of players and then mailing them to keep it secret?

Then there is this pile of apologetic gold:

Quote:
An issue arose. Mistakes were made. The community voiced its concerns [in its own uniquely charming way]. Our representatives did a great job representing our views. There was communication between the player base and the publisher of this here awesome content.


First it should read "another issue arose" not just an issue like this is the first time. Then there is your little condescending remark about the community response highlighting your own ignorance. Then there is the ass kissing statement about the CSM when several members in this thread were prepared to handwave away what happened. And no communication has been absolutely awful because it wasn't a CCP employee or CSM member that broke the story. In fact I would say we have absolutely no communication between CCP and the player base and no one knows just what the CSM stands for in light of recent comments.

But you should move to Iceland you would fit in rather well with the group think taking place up there.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#244 - 2013-10-05 17:09:24 UTC
Scooter McCabe wrote:
Then there is this pile of apologetic gold:
Quote:
An issue arose. Mistakes were made. The community voiced its concerns [in its own uniquely charming way]. Our representatives did a great job representing our views. There was communication between the player base and the publisher of this here awesome content.

First it should read "another issue arose" not just an issue like this is the first time. Then there is your little condescending remark about the community response highlighting your own ignorance. Then there is the ass kissing statement about the CSM when several members in this thread were prepared to handwave away what happened. And no communication has been absolutely awful because it wasn't a CCP employee or CSM member that broke the story. In fact I would say we have absolutely no communication between CCP and the player base and no one knows just what the CSM stands for in light of recent comments.

But you should move to Iceland you would fit in rather well with the group think taking place up there.

This is absolute posting gold.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Sabotaged
Veritas Vincit
#245 - 2013-10-05 17:42:52 UTC
If CCP decided to give a few ships for SOMER to put up on it's lottery showing their support I think that's totally cool.

Lets say each scorpion is 15 billion isk. That's 25 PLEX's per employee. 24 x 56 = 1400 PLEX's. 2 years free game play per person, for what exactly? Because they work for a lottery already makes tons of isk and sells GTC's?

"We acknowledge that we rushed this event, and we are certainly learning from it now."

Translation: "We don't know why we did it."

Maybe they wanted a cheap easy way to add over a trillion isk to the game from out of thin air.

Probably just incompotence.
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2013-10-05 18:07:21 UTC
Sabotaged wrote:
Maybe they wanted a cheap easy way to add over a trillion isk to the game from out of thin air.

No ISK was injected into the economy (that we know of).
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#247 - 2013-10-05 18:16:39 UTC
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Sabotaged wrote:
Maybe they wanted a cheap easy way to add over a trillion isk to the game from out of thin air.

No ISK was injected into the economy (that we know of).


It's true, it's just an automatic shift of 1 trillion+ from other players to somer blink.
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2013-10-05 19:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sirane Elrek
I'm not disputing that, but the topic of ISK sinks and sources is a pet peeve of mine. (And most people posting about it don't understand what the terms mean.)
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2013-10-05 19:59:53 UTC
So what I hear is that

1. Somer Blink is important to people
2. Somer Blink is large enough to have a decent effect.
3. CCP wants to reward fansites and people who add content to the game.

So, why didn't CCP argue that BoB was big and important enough to the game to hand out free **** to; surely their forums were somewhat large and added content to the game? Their current attitude suggests that this would have been a reasonable answer.

CCP has given players an in-game advantage (a bunch of rare ships worth a lot of money to raffle off), denying it to others, with some rather flimsy excuses. They backed down enough to not step on the toes of a couple of ship collectors like entity, but have shown disdain for other groups and favoritism.

Oh, and CCP did not inform the CSM, again? Are they incapable of learning from their mistakes.

CCP, this is bad. Stop. Roll back these plans, remove anything that has already been given to somer, unless you are intending to give every 3rd party service the same ships.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#250 - 2013-10-05 20:34:22 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
So what I hear is that

1. Somer Blink is important to people
2. Somer Blink is large enough to have a decent effect.
3. CCP wants to reward fansites and people who add content to the game.

So, why didn't CCP argue that BoB was big and important enough to the game to hand out free **** to; surely their forums were somewhat large and added content to the game? Their current attitude suggests that this would have been a reasonable answer.

CCP has given players an in-game advantage (a bunch of rare ships worth a lot of money to raffle off), denying it to others, with some rather flimsy excuses. They backed down enough to not step on the toes of a couple of ship collectors like entity, but have shown disdain for other groups and favoritism.

Oh, and CCP did not inform the CSM, again? Are they incapable of learning from their mistakes.

CCP, this is bad. Stop. Roll back these plans, remove anything that has already been given to somer, unless you are intending to give every 3rd party service the same ships.

progodlegend put together an entire coalition in order to destroy gsf

but they had to leave test to die because they needed renter isk to fight gsf

give progodlegend 10 supercarriers more worth of stuff tia

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2013-10-05 20:42:19 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Demon Azrakel wrote:
So what I hear is that

1. Somer Blink is important to people
2. Somer Blink is large enough to have a decent effect.
3. CCP wants to reward fansites and people who add content to the game.

So, why didn't CCP argue that BoB was big and important enough to the game to hand out free **** to; surely their forums were somewhat large and added content to the game? Their current attitude suggests that this would have been a reasonable answer.

CCP has given players an in-game advantage (a bunch of rare ships worth a lot of money to raffle off), denying it to others, with some rather flimsy excuses. They backed down enough to not step on the toes of a couple of ship collectors like entity, but have shown disdain for other groups and favoritism.

Oh, and CCP did not inform the CSM, again? Are they incapable of learning from their mistakes.

CCP, this is bad. Stop. Roll back these plans, remove anything that has already been given to somer, unless you are intending to give every 3rd party service the same ships.

progodlegend put together an entire coalition in order to destroy gsf

but they had to leave test to die because they needed renter isk to fight gsf

give progodlegend 10 supercarriers more worth of stuff tia


I...uh...what?
Sabotaged
Veritas Vincit
#252 - 2013-10-05 21:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabotaged
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Sabotaged wrote:
Maybe they wanted a cheap easy way to add over a trillion isk to the game from out of thin air.

No ISK was injected into the economy (that we know of).


Obviously you don't know.

Isk = asset. trillion isk worth of ship = asset. Net worth = assets - liability

If I have a billion isk, and somoene suddenly gives me a 15 billion ship out of thin air, i'm now worth 16 billion isk. For doing no work whatsoever or spending $$$.

The entire Net worth of the game has just been increased by a potential value of a trillion isk. Maybe call it Asset Inection? But Asset=Isk .....

Everytime I mine or mission, ISK is injected into the game, when ships and modules are lost ISK is destroyed.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#253 - 2013-10-05 21:18:14 UTC
Sabotaged wrote:
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Sabotaged wrote:
Maybe they wanted a cheap easy way to add over a trillion isk to the game from out of thin air.

No ISK was injected into the economy (that we know of).


Obviously you don't know.

Isk = asset. trillion isk worth of ship = asset. Net worth = assets - liability

If I have a billion isk, and someone suddenly gives me a 15 billion ship out of thin air, i'm now worth 16 billion isk. For doing no work whatsoever or spending $$$.

The entire Net worth of the game has just been increased by a potential value of a trillion isk. Maybe call it Asset Inection? But Asset=Isk .....



Yes, but remember, people in EVE like to look at things in terms of isk sinks and faucets in terms of how it effects the economy. In those terms, the effect is minimal.

Totally unfair and blatant favoritism, but this was not an isk faucet, and no isk entered the economy (unless it dies and there is an insurance payout).
Sabotaged
Veritas Vincit
#254 - 2013-10-05 21:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabotaged
Demon Azrakel wrote:

Yes, but remember, people in EVE like to look at things in terms of isk sinks and faucets in terms of how it effects the economy. In those terms, the effect is minimal.

Totally unfair and blatant favoritism, but this was not an isk faucet, and no isk entered the economy (unless it dies and there is an insurance payout).


How it effects the economy is way above my pay scale heh. But my point was either they're really stupid, or they don't want to tell us why they did it. Or both. Rushing into it and learning from it, isn't an answer as to "wth are you guys doing?" Lol
Liam Todd Bloodstar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#255 - 2013-10-06 12:03:27 UTC
I hold to my statement....

35 Trillion ISK profit from the lotteries of free stuff CCP gave them...

Translation into PLEX is just under $1 million

Then throw in some nice super rare battleships....

End with Eve no longer being a sandbox worth playing



F this, Im out...
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#256 - 2013-10-06 12:28:35 UTC
Well the good news is that not only was Navigator unjustifiably declaring a particular in-game, for profit group as legitimate and 100% trustworthy, and handing their in-game, for profit group unique items for them to use as part of their in-game, for profit business

he was also directly giving members of somer special gifts worth hundreds of billions as "thanks"

hahahahaha this is unfuckingbelievable

No wonder the CSM were kept out of the loop, this is the exact same t20 crap all over again

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

I'm done with this game.
Xaen
Telepathic Death Mimes
#257 - 2013-10-06 16:31:51 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Well the good news is that not only was Navigator unjustifiably declaring a particular in-game, for profit group as legitimate and 100% trustworthy, and handing their in-game, for profit group unique items for them to use as part of their in-game, for profit business

he was also directly giving members of somer special gifts worth hundreds of billions as "thanks"

hahahahaha this is unfuckingbelievable

No wonder the CSM were kept out of the loop, this is the exact same t20 crap all over again

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

I'm done with this game.

CCP, CCP Navigator is making a bloody mess of your game. Where's internal affairs on this?

Where was the CSM?

Did you learn NOTHING from the t20 scandal?!?

The foolishness is ASTOUNDING.

Like, I seriously can't believe how quadruple, game-ruiningly stupid this whole thing has become.

JUST STOP SHOWING FAVORITISM.

STAHP!

I get shouty crackers a lot. Deal with it.

Bronden Neopatus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#258 - 2013-10-06 16:46:14 UTC
CCP takes mah money.
SOMER takes mah money.
CCP hands mah money to SOMER.

I wonder why.

She strutted into my office wearing a dress that clung to her like Saran Wrap to a sloppily butchered pork knuckle, bone and sinew jutting and lurching asymmetrically beneath its folds, the tightness exaggerating the granularity of the suet and causing what little palatable meat there was to sweat, its transparency the thief of imagination.

Maaaaowm Ogeko
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#259 - 2013-10-06 16:50:00 UTC
I really appreciate Argus Sorn of Star Frontiers/Dirt Nap Squad for laying out the issues involved here in a reasonably objective, grown-up, clear manner.



Montmazar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2013-10-06 17:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Montmazar
Dramaticus wrote:
CCP should have just cut out the middle man and give SOMER a gigantic pile of timecards to sell


Or cash. Because if anyone doesn't believe Somer will try to turn as much of his estimated 120 TRILLION isk (FunkyBacon estimate) as possible into real money, whether it's already happened or will in the future, lol. Just lol. When you can afford to buy 100 officer fit titans and 100 characters to fly those titans and still barely notice, there's only one reasonable thing left to do with that space money.

If CCP wants Eve Online to be a casino with a spaceship game attached to it, which seems to be the case, I am puzzled by why they don't just make it official and put Somer on the payroll. Make it honest.