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New dev blog: Player Owned Customs Offices: An update!

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Ore Grinder
Star-Gate Command
#221 - 2011-11-16 02:24:03 UTC
There has to be guns on these things or small roaming gangs will pick them off if there is nothing better to do. If you saw an offline POS in low sec would you shoot it? Of course you would. It won't shoot back and it's a free kill mail. You could show up in a glass cannon and shoot it all day since you don't have to worry about tank. Zero deterrent is not a good idea here.
Meldan Anstian
The Night Crew
#222 - 2011-11-16 02:28:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Meldan Anstian
CCP Omen wrote:
Here are some replies to topics raised:

"People will grief the Interbus COs"
That is quite probable, even with this change of deployment, our guiding light is that EVE is player driven. This way the transition between NPC owned and Player owned will be smoother. It's no silver bullet and balancing between player driven and player convenience is very difficult. Our hope remain that you, the player will organize and sort out the supply and demand of PI goods and the availability of Customs Offices. If that does not happen, and there is a measurable decline in lowsec or PI activity then we will act. How we act will be decided if that event occurs, but we will not simply let lowsec die. We strive to invigorate lowsec, not just with this feature but for the long run. You may disagree that this feature will accomplish that, but that is never the less one of our goals and we will monitor how it pans out.

"Do you think more people will do PI?"
No, as many have pointed out the PI gameplay in itself is far from perfect and we are absolutely not trying to make people do PI. The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict and the verisimilitude of the EVE universe. Actual improvements to PI is an entirely different topic. Having said that, we are hoping for activity to stay somewhat the same.

"Did you have a clue the prices went up based on the previous blog?"
Yes - absolutely and that was expected. We also fully expect the prices of PI goods to be unstable while the market adapts. The higher prices are in fact essential to drive motivation to operate Customs Offices. In the end, we believe the prices of for instance POS fuel will stabilize as we have seen with nearly all other player driven commodities in EVE.

"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread"
We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.

Regards
Omen


/sigh

The tax rate is based on a tariff. You charge between 0 and 100% of the tariff, which is a fixed number as you say. This basically means that the "higher prices" you feel are "essential to drive motivation to operate Custom's Offices" have zero effect on the profitability of a CO. Whether a robotics sells for 100 isk each or 100 million ISK each, the export tax is exactly the same ISK.

If this change drove more people to do PI, than perhaps a greater volume of PI would generate more income (not because of market prices), however your stated hope and expectation is that the amount of PI will remain about the same. Beyond that, planets have a limited amount of resources and therefore income from a PCO is also limited.

I think that the SP spent on PI should be refunded. Log files help PCO owners know when I will be doing PI, where I will be going to do it and even the character that will be doing it. There is no guarantee that the PCO will still exist when I come to pick up my commodities from a spaceport that suddenly has no use other than being a silo. I have no real defenses against this other than varying my play time.

Furthermore, I think that the SP for transport ships should also be refunded. PI was the only reason I trained transport ships on 2 of my 3 accounts. I trained transports on the 3rd, and still have use for transports on him, just not PI.

When I trained for PI and transport ships, I knew that a CO was going to be at the planet when I went to pick up my goods. I also knew that the owner wasn't looking at logs to seen when, where and who was coming with a nice juicy transport ship for him to blow up. I am not notified when tax rates change, when the PCO is attacked or destroyed, or given any notice that the owner suddenly blocked access to me. You fundamentally changed what PI is, and therefore should refund the SP used for PI. I know that you will not do this, after all I'm just a player and my thoughts are insignificant.

As far as acting on the feed back of the first thread - It's great that you fixed a couple problems that sorely needed fixes with the first planned implementation. However, if you have 4 flat tires on a car, does fixing only 2 do much good? CCP has a fairly well established reputation for implementing unfinished expansions and never really finishing them. Your comment that you couldn't implement many good ideas because of the time frame is an indication that this will be another example of that. Perhaps, you should give yourself time to properly finish this and do a good job of it before shoving it down the players throats half assed.

Of the 2 major fixes that you implemented, at least 1 is so glaringly obvious a problem that it is painful to think that you were ready to make the PCO enhancement live with the idea that 1000's of existing CO's just disappear. I would suggest that if you had not thought through CO's and PCO's sufficiently to identify and fix the problem of 1000's of CO's disappearing simultaneously after a couple of months of development and programming, than you clearly have not thought through this enhancement and it's ramifications well enough to make it go live with any prayer of making it successful. The few weeks of mostly ignored player feedback and ideas is not sufficient to change that.

You say that "our guiding light is that EVE is player driven". I think your being blinded by the light and have shut your eyes.
Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
#223 - 2011-11-16 02:41:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mishatola
Ok, so at least initially there will be no help for the small folks, greifing will be huge etc.

Whats the worst case scenario for me? (low sec planets)

I have to shoot everything off using my CC cause somebody killed it (the CO) and didn't bother to but another up. - Or they did but will not let me use it.

1. I will have to redo a few colonies cause the CC is too damn far from everything else, but that's a one time thing.

2. I will have to shoot 10k/0.5k (volumes) or 20 times every two weeks per planet (6), on 2 characters or a huge 240 pickups every 2 weeks. (My standard setup is 5 storage sites so the 25 minute expedite timer is not my bottle neck). 240 pickups is just gross.

3. I will not be able to import. So no more P3 (robotics etc. ok i could but its not worth it in my opinion).

I remember reading a blog about lessons learned about how CCP found that players will do what is the best if tedious way to get it done... they will just hate it. Are they forgetting this lesson?

Here is hopeing that interbus places a CO at a planet if one has not been there for a week. But I don't think thats in the works.

Here is hoping my new overloards will be kind.... cause I've got this independent streak. Its certainly a challange to play a game solo for free when it is stated again and again by CCP that it is not meant to be played solo, and they continue to put into practice that mentality. Big smile

EDIT:
Maybe I should be praying that i actually get to have an overlord?
Zleon Leigh
#224 - 2011-11-16 05:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zleon Leigh
So right after DT, those players who aren't at work will be able to get on and blow away the Interbus stations and I'll loose anything I've left in customs, this even though I might have RL issues that keep me from clearing it out beforehand.

All the PI in CO's in NPC Null and lowSec needs to be moved by CCP to NPC stations during the transition. If you export PI to CO after the transition, fine, you knew that the CO's are going to be dropping like flies.

There will be roaming gangs doing nothing but dropping CO's in NPC Null and lowSec for the lutz. (I guess ammo producers will be having a good time for a while.) Guess what? Given the poor math, no one will put a CO backup to replace it. CCP - you need a timer that grows CO's back into place if players don't actually take over a spot. Otherwise you're going to cut off all smaller corps and individuals from lowSec and Null PI.

~"Going to keep an eye on PI and fix if it gets out of control" - how? At that point it will be a crisis and you'll have to seed PI sells - and compete with the few PI producers that are still in business.


This is nothing but a cluster. POS's are gonna die and they won't be going back up.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express
#225 - 2011-11-16 08:24:28 UTC
Like the changes since the last iteration.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#226 - 2011-11-16 08:48:10 UTC
stop winning, the changes are good, we should be pushing for other stuff, like:

allows us to choose any other structure in the planet, other than the command center, to be the starting focus point when we enter in Planet mode or we double click anywhere in the planet with the mouse!

Most of the times or production is in the other side of the planet and is really annoying to lose time looking for it.

--

so in resume, if you still have time for this winter release on 29, please add a new menu entry to the structures that allow us to choose it as the primary. Then just add a new menu entry to the planet menu to allow us to jump focus to the command center when we need it (almost never).

Thanks

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#227 - 2011-11-16 09:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
Also these changes are easy to make and can be placed in time for the 29 release:

- Storage Facilities have no advantages over Launchpads -> yes, nobody uses them, they really need a boost on the storage space.

- Allow us to destroy products we do not want to export, special now with the new custom offices with expensive tax rates and such -> I probably will not want to take out excess T0 materials from it and just dump them to avoid extra costs.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Sigras
Conglomo
#228 - 2011-11-16 09:17:17 UTC
Ore Grinder wrote:
There has to be guns on these things or small roaming gangs will pick them off if there is nothing better to do. If you saw an offline POS in low sec would you shoot it? Of course you would. It won't shoot back and it's a free kill mail. You could show up in a glass cannon and shoot it all day since you don't have to worry about tank. Zero deterrent is not a good idea here.

isnt that kinda the point? now a relatively small group of roaming pirates can destroy a part of their enemie's infrastructure without having to have a huge fleet or deploy caps

While this seems like the first step in a journey of thousands of miles, anything that may make a massive alliance more defensive rather than offensive is IMHO a good thing.

you may say that this wont do that, or that large alliances wont notice/dont care but you gotta start somewhere, and like i said, journey of a thousand miles.
Echo Mande
#229 - 2011-11-16 10:06:01 UTC
Overall the changes are an improvement, though I have two issues with the concept as presented.

The first is 0.0 related. Will PI in sov 0.0 be possible without being a member of the sov holding alliance? With PCO access control being introduced the ability to plant control centers should basically be changed to 'if you can warp there you can plant CCs there'. Various 0.0 sovholders who will remain nameless would appreciate the extra income.

I support 0.0 PCO owners being able to lock out people they don't like but does this extend into lowsec. Unless people cannot be locked out of lowsec PCOs this will slowly but effectively kill lowsec PI.

Wallet remarks everywhere
ThaWolf X2
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2011-11-16 10:53:11 UTC
Well, this means nothing else then CCP doesn't listen and that taking part in the discussion isn't worth it.

The implementation of this crappy console Game Dust is more important to them than the Eve economy.

PI in Lowsek is going to be without reward, 1 covert hauler takes months of PI to compensate, not worth the risk if you cant use POCOS anymore, PVP will also drop since the travel will decrease.

T2 prices will skyrocket, the margins to produce T2 are so low already, that you cant call it making money, its noting more then a hobby because some ppl like to produce stuff, shooting NPC would be way more ISK effective.

But when you need to pay more into that Hobby, which still is like gambling in the casino, compared to what you get out of it, why bother doing it at all, and i dont think that ppl will buy many T2 items anymore if something like an Overdrive2 costs 10Mill/piece, not to speak of t2 Ship-prices.

PI in Highsek is worthless on a time/outcome perspective, you cant run a Pos with the small amount you get out of Empire planets.

For me it means i will stomp PI in Lowsek and stop T2 production, and i will move my interests of producing stuff into another game where it is more fun.

This entire patch is turning into a grand disaster, Gallente "fix", wont do anything, Tier 3 BC, already nerved back to be useless, not sure how long i will have my last account subbed.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#231 - 2011-11-16 11:33:14 UTC
The changes verify what the Mythbusters have demonstrated...


You can polish a turd.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#232 - 2011-11-16 13:00:34 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Current tariffs in high-security space - as of today - on Singularity:

P0 Aqua - 0.50 / 1.00 per unit (import/export)
P1 Oxygen - 0.10 / 0.20 per unit
P2 Coolant - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit
P2 Mech Parts - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit
P3 Robotics - 600 / 1200 per unit
P4 Broadcast Node - 50,000 / 100,000 per unit


Quoting again, it's still like this on Sisi.

Can we get confirmation this is bugged, or that you really want to make POCOs unviable on harvest planets? The old amounts were already bad, but at that rate it will take literally a hundred years to repay a harvest planet POCO (at 10% rate).

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Ayesha Arkaral
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#233 - 2011-11-16 14:12:48 UTC
All I can do is offer up what kind of player I am and how this might affect me.

I'm fairly new, I was having some fun doing some high sec missions and trading but I've moved from that, I've just recently moved into w-space. I find it to be much more fun as there's always something new that can happen every day from new entrances/exits.

I acquire all of my POS fuel in-system. I do not have the funds or means to erect player-controlled COs at this point. I fully expect to become someone's static and for them to grief my Interbus COs within a week, hell I wouldn't be surprised really if it took a day given the types I've encountered in w-space. So what does this mean... I will need to buy fuel on the Market? Yeah, along with everyone else? I know a little bit about basic supply and demand and this seems like demand is going to utterly skyrocket. There is no way I will be able to remain in my hole. I'm going to be kicked out of doing what I like. Sounds awesome!

I could stock up on fuel before hand, but wait, I can't because it's going to be a different fuel type. It's already too late anyway.
rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#234 - 2011-11-16 14:29:31 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
It sounds like your area of space would be difficult to do anything industrious because of your corp. Building factories in a warzone filled with random explosions is a bad plan.


Sadly, lowsec is getting more and more like this. Some guys were so afraid of me the other day that they had to bring in a titan to help their supercarriers kill my battlecruiser. I know I'm scary, but that's just overkill.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#235 - 2011-11-16 15:15:25 UTC
Ayesha Arkaral wrote:
All I can do is offer up what kind of player I am and how this might affect me.

I'm fairly new, I was having some fun doing some high sec missions and trading but I've moved from that, I've just recently moved into w-space. I find it to be much more fun as there's always something new that can happen every day from new entrances/exits.

I acquire all of my POS fuel in-system. I do not have the funds or means to erect player-controlled COs at this point. I fully expect to become someone's static and for them to grief my Interbus COs within a week, hell I wouldn't be surprised really if it took a day given the types I've encountered in w-space. So what does this mean... I will need to buy fuel on the Market? Yeah, along with everyone else? I know a little bit about basic supply and demand and this seems like demand is going to utterly skyrocket. There is no way I will be able to remain in my hole. I'm going to be kicked out of doing what I like. Sounds awesome!

I could stock up on fuel before hand, but wait, I can't because it's going to be a different fuel type. It's already too late anyway.


Actually you will be able to stock up in advance, or build your own, before the transition.

In your WH do you typically have hostile groups hanging in there for more than 24 hours? If not then putting up your own CO's doesn't sound all that risky, considering their reinforcement tiner and the fact that you can repair them.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#236 - 2011-11-16 15:16:25 UTC
rootimus maximus wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
It sounds like your area of space would be difficult to do anything industrious because of your corp. Building factories in a warzone filled with random explosions is a bad plan.


Sadly, lowsec is getting more and more like this. Some guys were so afraid of me the other day that they had to bring in a titan to help their supercarriers kill my battlecruiser. I know I'm scary, but that's just overkill.


Sounds like they just wanted to rack up some sub cap kills with thier super caps while they still can.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Meldan Anstian
The Night Crew
#237 - 2011-11-16 15:19:21 UTC
To paraphrase Admiral David Farragut ---

"Damn the players, full speed ahead."
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#238 - 2011-11-16 15:52:23 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ayesha Arkaral wrote:
All I can do is offer up what kind of player I am and how this might affect me.

I'm fairly new, I was having some fun doing some high sec missions and trading but I've moved from that, I've just recently moved into w-space. I find it to be much more fun as there's always something new that can happen every day from new entrances/exits.

I acquire all of my POS fuel in-system. I do not have the funds or means to erect player-controlled COs at this point. I fully expect to become someone's static and for them to grief my Interbus COs within a week, hell I wouldn't be surprised really if it took a day given the types I've encountered in w-space. So what does this mean... I will need to buy fuel on the Market? Yeah, along with everyone else? I know a little bit about basic supply and demand and this seems like demand is going to utterly skyrocket. There is no way I will be able to remain in my hole. I'm going to be kicked out of doing what I like. Sounds awesome!

I could stock up on fuel before hand, but wait, I can't because it's going to be a different fuel type. It's already too late anyway.


Actually you will be able to stock up in advance, or build your own, before the transition.

In your WH do you typically have hostile groups hanging in there for more than 24 hours? If not then putting up your own CO's doesn't sound all that risky, considering their reinforcement tiner and the fact that you can repair them.


He's talking about the time period before he can afford to put up PCOs... if someone comes in on a whim and blows away his current customs offices before he can get the PCOs his PI is effectively halted.

It's an ill-thought solution that doesn't really fix anything. If the customs offices remained invulnerable and simply deactivated in the presence of a PCO, reactivating if/when it's removed this would solve any and all issues that can be had with broken PI.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
John DaiSho
Quam Singulari Industry
Roid Suckers
#239 - 2011-11-16 16:02:38 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ayesha Arkaral wrote:
All I can do is offer up what kind of player I am and how this might affect me.

I'm fairly new, I was having some fun doing some high sec missions and trading but I've moved from that, I've just recently moved into w-space. I find it to be much more fun as there's always something new that can happen every day from new entrances/exits.

I acquire all of my POS fuel in-system. I do not have the funds or means to erect player-controlled COs at this point. I fully expect to become someone's static and for them to grief my Interbus COs within a week, hell I wouldn't be surprised really if it took a day given the types I've encountered in w-space. So what does this mean... I will need to buy fuel on the Market? Yeah, along with everyone else? I know a little bit about basic supply and demand and this seems like demand is going to utterly skyrocket. There is no way I will be able to remain in my hole. I'm going to be kicked out of doing what I like. Sounds awesome!

I could stock up on fuel before hand, but wait, I can't because it's going to be a different fuel type. It's already too late anyway.


Actually you will be able to stock up in advance, or build your own, before the transition.

In your WH do you typically have hostile groups hanging in there for more than 24 hours? If not then putting up your own CO's doesn't sound all that risky, considering their reinforcement tiner and the fact that you can repair them.


He's talking about the time period before he can afford to put up PCOs... if someone comes in on a whim and blows away his current customs offices before he can get the PCOs his PI is effectively halted.

It's an ill-thought solution that doesn't really fix anything. If the customs offices remained invulnerable and simply deactivated in the presence of a PCO, reactivating if/when it's removed this would solve any and all issues that can be had with broken PI.


And would kill almost all reasons to try to defend your own POCO
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#240 - 2011-11-16 16:07:00 UTC
John DaiSho wrote:
And would kill almost all reasons to try to defend your own POCO


In wormholes that's irrelevant... the PCO will be reinforced for longer than the wormhole the people that cami in and shot it up will be open. They'll be gone, you repair it.

The bigger issue still lies with low sec PI from high sec people... if someone shoots the customs office they're shut out. If they're in an NPC corp they're frakked. If a corp in low puts up a PCO the high people may or may not be locked out. If the low sec corp is being dicks, the high sec folks now have the option to take out the PCO to regain PI access if they wish. The low sec corp can defend it, with reason.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.