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Dev blog: License to kill: Certificates Overhaul

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Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#141 - 2013-10-02 19:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Sorry, there is nothing planned for missile requirements right now. However, we'll need to have a full module tiericide at some point, and this could be a good thing to look at then.

Also remember, training a Tech2 turret faster doesn't necessarily mean you can effectively use it without the support skills.

Except that missile users still have to train support skills.

Congratulations on completely missing the point. Before, missiles were faster to specialize in one specific thing but slower to get everything. Now, turrets are always faster.

If missile split skills aren't getting changed to match gunnery yet, gunnery T2 progression shouldn't be changed to match (actually,be significantly faster than) T2 missile progression yet.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#142 - 2013-10-02 19:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Sorry, there is nothing planned for missile requirements right now. However, we'll need to have a full module tiericide at some point, and this could be a good thing to look at then.

Also remember, training a Tech2 turret faster doesn't necessarily mean you can effectively use it without the support skills.


Thanks for confirming this. I'll start a separate thread to discuss, so it doesn't distract from the certification changes.

I think it's been said by a few people, but this change to the Gunnery skill progression further highlights the disparity between the Missile weapon system in its current state.
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#143 - 2013-10-02 20:52:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Crowley
JamnOne wrote:
If I am reading this right it sounds like that if my clone isn't up to date and I die (as I usually do...lol) and lose Destroyer 3 I can still fly cruisers. Does this mean I can still level up Cruisers since I have already trained it to one and then progress to HACs without ever having to train the Destroyer ship again?
Yep, you don't even have to train it to 1, just injecting the cruiser skill while you still have Destroyer 3 is enough. After that you don't need the nested prerequisite again.

Jim Parsons wrote:
The Gunnery Tiericide should be implemented in a seperate patch sooner than the expansion (within the next 2 weeks). It's not fair to those training Large (gun) Turret V right now without having trained Small and Medium yet to have to decide whether to wait until the expansion to be able to use Large T2 guns. The other option is to reimburse skillpoints for any levels trained in both Small and Medium (gun) Turret if Large (gun) Turret is at V when the expansion is released.
You get shorter training times for turrets and now you want free SPs cause you can't have it yesterday but instead have to wait several weeks till release? I hope you're kidding...
polvo zangado
Caldari Prime Defense Initiative
#144 - 2013-10-02 22:08:18 UTC
Great you make changes after I collected all the certificates.
Daler Farmon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#145 - 2013-10-03 03:40:12 UTC
A question to officials: Does the tech2 Ammo requirements will be also changed for t2 guns? Because they all have the same per-requsites to be used.. It will be very strange to get t2 gun faster then t2 ammo, hopefully u will make requirements for t2 ammo the same as t2 guns.

Thanks
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#146 - 2013-10-03 08:06:33 UTC
Daler Farmon wrote:
A question to officials: Does the tech2 Ammo requirements will be also changed for t2 guns? Because they all have the same per-requsites to be used.. It will be very strange to get t2 gun faster then t2 ammo, hopefully u will make requirements for t2 ammo the same as t2 guns.
Yes.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
How about Tech2 ammunition, will the skill requirements change too?
Yes, all the Tech2 ammos require the Turret specialization skills, which are the ones being changed in the first place - sorry, should have been clearer in the blog.
Jaden Soniel
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#147 - 2013-10-05 11:13:43 UTC
You better upgrade that clone Baguetteman before someone pods you...
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2013-10-07 05:11:08 UTC
I think it lacks some ability to share or just be stupid.

Whatever can be seen like this should be sharable. "Show me" style in-game.

Example of "stupid" - a guy in a public channel heading for Jita talking about his pimp fit tengu then links it. 6 billion worth of fittings on it. *THAT* is stupid but it happens.

Nothing like this is in the design.

Not really stupid - you join up with an incursion (this gen or some future gen of it) and they want certain skills at certain levels to insure success. Is it possible to show them vs claims and such (thinking meta fits)?

In general - what may be exposed via the API - see that at least "current state" can also be exposed/shared in the game by that player. This doesn't seem to have that "share" factor in it.
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2013-10-07 20:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nomistrav
These things might have already been mentioned, my bad if they were - I didn't read through the eight pages of previous posts.

Starting from the Rookie Ship:

- Rookie ship shouldn't have rigging skills in it's certifications being as it doesn't have rig slots anyway. Almost all of the certifications require multiple different rigging skills.
- Why have all forms of sensor strengths if the ship only uses one type?
- Micro Jump Drive Operation on a frigate???

Shuttle:

- Rigging skills again
- Micro Jump Drive Operation...
- Afterburner Operation..?

This applies to all frigates. Skills for things that the ship doesn't utilize (micro jump drive and sensor skills being the greatest common factor). Certain skills that aren't privy to what the ship is supposed to do (science for a Navitas???) [EDIT: Realized this was for Electronics Upgrades but.. Still kinda odd for the Navitas.] Advanced Targeting Management V for Frigates is redundant since there aren't any frigates that can utilize that many locked targets (that I'm aware of).

Essentially getting Mastery in a certain ship means that you invested a bunch of time into skills that have absolutely nothing to do with the ship itself, detracting new players from skilling into the things they truly need and focusing on the things that are useless to the ship itself.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Viscount Hood
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#150 - 2013-10-08 05:56:48 UTC
are there any new certificates for capital ships?

something for us old timers to achieve?
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2013-10-08 14:03:56 UTC
Viscount Hood wrote:
are there any new certificates for capital ships?

something for us old timers to achieve?


Yeah, but it's still got the weird issue(s) of things that you probably won't use. Hull upgrades being a rather humorous one, or sensor strength skills.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
EI7FPB 3
EI7FPB Ltd
#152 - 2013-10-08 16:19:18 UTC
License to kill: Certificates Overhaul

Hi,
I don't know about you, but here is the way I see Certificates, a lot of players don't declare Certificates,
because it give away you skill set, and like it or not, other players will use it against you.

Player talk about Certificates, on comms, in Alliance & Corp chat and with friend, but never in public.


Here is what I would like to see,

- Certificates Permissions to be ' Private, Corporation, Alliance, Public'
- Alliance & Corp Certificates


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The back story

A corp CEO & Alliance boss, decides that over the next few weeks, there are going to be some Low-Sec mining ops,
the Alliance has a few hundred players, he needs to find the Alliance members that have the skills he needs.
He send out a mail calling for volunteers, Days later, he is still getting mails, ' Here is my API, do I have the skills you need ?',
Who recruited these guys anyway Attention. ( Note to self, replace the recruitment team ).

CCP introduce Alliance & Corp Certificates.

This will make the job a lot easier,

He creates some Alliance Certificates
-- Basic Exhumers ( Skill required, Exhumers 3, Mining 4, Mining Upgrades 4, Etc... )
-- Pro Exhumers ( Skill required, Exhumers, T2 Strip Miner, T1 Mining Crystals Etc... )
-- Elite Exhumers ( Skill required, Exhumers, T2 Strip Miner, T2 Mining Crystals Etc... )

all so, Certificates for, Industrialist, Fleet Booster, Logis, Scouts, PvP ( The gate gang ), Etc...

He send out a mail calling for volunteers, On getting the mail player open their Character sheet, and go to Alliance & Corp Certificates, View the Certificates, on seeing all green check-marks on the skills required, they 'Claim the Certificate' and pay a small administration fee ( you have to pay tax, Lol ) and set the Permissions to Alliance.

The next day, the Low-Sec mining ops starts, Life is good in this Alliance.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Certificates are a VERY GOOD IDEA, they help players focus skill training, But the current and new Certificates are guides to skill training, in CCP opinion ( not all bad, some very good ).

But CEO, Alliance bosses, Fleet Commanders have other ideas, take the new ' Resource Processing - Salvaging Certificates' there is no mention of Tractor Beams or the Noctis.
To me an Elite Salvager is somebody who can fly the Noctis ( Cap stable ), with T2 Salvagers & Tractor Beams, and can lock 10 targets, Skills required
-- ORE Industrial 5
-- Salvaging 5
-- Science 5
-- Armor Rigging 5
-- Advanced Target Management 3
-- Etc..


Looking at the Noctis Information Window, the new Mastery tab, the level 5 Certificates in particular
Core Ship Operation - Weapon Upgrades, Advanced Weapon Upgrades ( No weapons can be fitted to this ship ) Question
Navigation - Micro Jump Drive Operation ( This module can not be fitted to this class of ship ) Question
Targeting - Gravimetric Sensor Compensation, Ladar Sensor Compensation, Radar Sensor Compensation
( This ship has a Magnetometric Sensor ) Question


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

CCP is doing a great job, by the way. Big smile

Skill Certificates is a BIG job, and everybody has their own opinion, on skill training.

If CCP dose basic Certificates like, Ship core ( CPU, Power, Cap, Tank ), Mining, Weapons, etc.. To get players started.
And let the players look after the rest.


HELP US, TO HELP YOU.

.
Marko from Tropoja
#153 - 2013-10-08 22:51:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Marko from Tropoja
about new setification system

Check that image

MJD V for cruiser? what for?
12 targets for omen? it can make possible only with 3 signal amplifiers II in low slots. Who will use that?
Omen have radar sensors. Why must I have 3 other types in V for it?
Buka Parallax
Eyes of Ra
#154 - 2013-10-09 08:14:21 UTC
First off THANK YOU CCP for doing this. I was always confused as hell as a new player in how the certs worked and navigating the window (s) was frustrating. This is a big deal to me.

Can we have the ability to have a history tab of certs that were acquired to recall for us after an extended time between logins?

It is always nice to know what skills I trained between logins. Upon entering the game the skills history tab reminds me what skills were completed that I had in the queue.

Something similar for certs should also be done. For new players this is vital as they do not understand nor can remember what skills they had in the queue and completed after a few days of being away from the game. This quick reminder is very cool and brings you back up to speed. Certs should have a history tab as well.

Thanks
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2013-10-09 13:09:43 UTC
This mastery system is done totally wrong.

I don't need MJD for cruisers navigation.
I don't need all 4 sensor compensations to fly one race.

You can't use general certificates to measure specific ship. Or you need to make certificates more general (i.e. remove MJD from navigation and create separate "battleship navigation").

Or why can't you just take skills that really affect given ship and then group them into categories?
Viscount Hood
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#156 - 2013-10-09 19:18:35 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Viscount Hood wrote:
are there any new certificates for capital ships?

something for us old timers to achieve?


Yeah, but it's still got the weird issue(s) of things that you probably won't use. Hull upgrades being a rather humorous one, or sensor strength skills.



yep done that too and the capital skills.....

Ugh what else can a 2003 player do ... level 4 to 5 is my stable diet of skilling..
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#157 - 2013-10-11 12:05:44 UTC
polvo zangado wrote:
Great you make changes after I collected all the certificates.

Now you get to collect them all again, for twice the pleasure. Lol


To be fair, you should have most of them already and now you can aim to get all Mastery 5's as well.

How to win EVE
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2013-10-13 22:27:53 UTC
Will Capital guns still require large guns 5? Seems anti specialization, to me. just how is module tiericide going CCP?

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#159 - 2013-10-22 12:48:27 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
A few comments:
-snip-
- You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it.
-snip-


Don't forget Deadspace and Officer modules...
Or simply make T2 Chages treat everything Meta5+ (Faction, Deadspace, Officer) as being able to use T2 charges - at least that would justify their ridiculously expensive prices somewhat (and would make them more expensive as well).

The way it is T2 Guns are simply put the best choice for weapons - the rest can't even compare.



I haven't gotten to check - but is Astronautic Engineering still in that Datacore certificate? You might want to kick the guy who put that in the excel sheet really hard (and do it personally - pictures or it didn't happen). Unless of course you bring it back and stuff.... along with Analytical Mind and stuff (precious metall coloured Magnates and luxurious yachts...)- so we can frown at people talking about perpetual motion units with more contempt.
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#160 - 2013-10-25 17:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Carmen Electra
Batelle wrote:
You are LITERALLY giving a gold star in exchange for people making suboptimalterrible training choices. Considering that the point of the system is to quantify good training choices, this is a bad standard. Maybe put the gold star on level 4, and a dunce cap for level 5.


THIS.

The only time to have a rigging skill to V is if you have one fit that you fly almost exclusively that doesn't work without that last 1-2% PG or CPU. This is arguably better achieved with an implant in most cases. Anyway, the point is that you are trying to make certs more useful and accessible. At first it seems like you recognize the flaw in certificates, but then you go and do this which makes it seem like you don't see the flaw after all.

Part of playing EVE well is knowing which skills to train and when. Level V skills should be chosen very strategically and very carefully as they have the potential to be a massive waste of SP. You're treating it like level V skills are l33t in an of themselves. As Batelle points out, skills like AWU V deserve a gold star while skills like gunnery spec skills and rigging skills at V deserve a dunce cap more often than not.

Bacon makes us stronger