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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1001 - 2013-10-05 01:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Do you think the only place I hack is on Sisi? I have done plenty on TQ. The only surprise I had was the 2 direct path mini games. Putting those aside, 7 hacking attempts were done 2 were givemes so I will discount those, 1 failed attempt, so 4 of 7 hacks were successful. That seems right for a Unbonused ship.

1 failed in 7 very realistic.
You have your position for whatever reason and the reality of other peoples experiences is not going to change that.
We are still requesting 10% virus strength. You do not need it.see the hopeful post below, this is what these ships are about!

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Cselle
Perkone
Caldari State
#1002 - 2013-10-05 01:20:01 UTC
I am ecstatic! I've always enjoyed exploring more than missioning, long before the new scanning and anomaly changes. I always thought a cruiser sized equivalent exploration/scanning ships was something the game greatly needed.

For decent combat sites and previously dangerous radar sites, the exploration and covert ops frigs really couldnt do anything, they can barely help their fleet-mates clear the sites.

While the only other alternative was T3 cruisers, which get prohibitively expensive, and can be tricky to balance dps / tank / cloak / scanning / speed. I KNOW... T3 is supposed to have broad skills, and master of none, but if your ship costs THAT much and you are running sites outside of highsec you really want all of those!

With the new updates and addition of the Gnosis, I had some hope that it'd fill the role of a larger exploration ship competent enough to scan and run combat sites or wormholes. Unfortunately, the cost and rarity of limited promo ships really detracts from their use.

NOW FINALLY with the SOE exploration cruiser I have hope again! (as long as it doesnt cost more than a tengu and can be fit moderately well)
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1003 - 2013-10-05 01:43:56 UTC
Eko Fromtv wrote:
50 pages in here's a t;dr: for any newcomers:

The cruiser is fine, either roll it out as is or put a laser bonus for maximum amarr/gallente authenticity.


This is pretty accurate.

The frigate, on the other hand, could use either a drone damage bonus or 1 extra high and 2 total turret hardpoints.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1004 - 2013-10-05 01:51:54 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Dehval wrote:

People in this thread would tell you otherwise because apparently heavies are horrible against a double webbed and scrammed target. Even Berserkers which are fast enough to catch most ABing cruiser and some MWDing ones.

These are not Capital Sized guns we are talking about. They have the tracking speed of an average cruiser weapon, they are going to hit whatever you catch.


Yeah well base Ogre damage application isn't amazing but this ship has plenty of ways to go about applying that damage to stuff they'd otherwise struggle to hit if your a little creative - even scram + double web would work fairly well and is fairly standard fitting.


To scram/dual web you'd have to armor fit, and therefore lose the mythical 1100 DPS.

You could get about 700, but that's hardly overpowered given the ~50k EHP


[New Setup 1]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

10MN Afterburner II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I,Tracking Speed Disruption Script
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II,Void M
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Drones_Active=Ogre II,5

That's 930 DPS and 50k EHP, I'm not sure why you think it's limited to 700.

You can also take the neutrons off and put neuts on, then swap the tracking disruptor for a small capacitor booster to get 700 DPS and 53.33 cap/sec of neuting. That fit is honestly probably better than this one but you don't need a paper thin tank to get high DPS. Ogres will have no problems hitting any kind of double-webbed ship.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1005 - 2013-10-05 01:55:13 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Eko Fromtv wrote:
50 pages in here's a t;dr: for any newcomers:

The cruiser is fine, either roll it out as is or put a laser bonus for maximum amarr/gallente authenticity.


This is pretty accurate.

The frigate, on the other hand, could use either a drone damage bonus or 1 extra high and 2 total turret hardpoints.

I will be delighted to see both of these ships, possibly a bit more power to the frigate makes sense,a third high slot could have value for a weapon or utility,
We mustn't lose sight of the fact that they still need to explore well, and need appropriate bonuses there.I know i've gone on about it but people who value exploring highly, have been a bit quiet and retiring in the past and get shouted over and disregarded.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#1006 - 2013-10-05 02:19:08 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
[snip]

That's 930 DPS and 50k EHP, I'm not sure why you think it's limited to 700.

You can also take the neutrons off and put neuts on, then swap the tracking disruptor for a small capacitor booster to get 700 DPS and 53.33 cap/sec of neuting. That fit is honestly probably better than this one but you don't need a paper thin tank to get high DPS. Ogres will have no problems hitting any kind of double-webbed ship.
Just stop trying. I've given up.

I'll just enjoy what we get come release. If it keeps the dps I'll have a nice ship to go hunting in wormholes with. Although I hope they keep the ship true to its design and give us a compelling reason to put lasers in the high slots vs blasters/neuts.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1007 - 2013-10-05 03:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Dehval wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
[snip]

That's 930 DPS and 50k EHP, I'm not sure why you think it's limited to 700.

You can also take the neutrons off and put neuts on, then swap the tracking disruptor for a small capacitor booster to get 700 DPS and 53.33 cap/sec of neuting. That fit is honestly probably better than this one but you don't need a paper thin tank to get high DPS. Ogres will have no problems hitting any kind of double-webbed ship.
Just stop trying. I've given up.

I'll just enjoy what we get come release. If it keeps the dps I'll have a nice ship to go hunting in wormholes with. Although I hope they keep the ship true to its design and give us a compelling reason to put lasers in the high slots vs blasters/neuts.


Definitely needs a compelling reason to use lasers, only setup I've looked at where I'd even consider them was maybe some kind of shield kiting setup and pulse with scorch. (Even thats a tentative option).
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1008 - 2013-10-05 03:24:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
How does 4/5/5, 2 turret hardpoints with a 50% damage role bonus sound alongside the 7.5% + application bonus instead of 10/lvl drone damage Dehval proposed for reigning in the DPS potential a bit. Still leaves just over 500dps for gardes (assuming 2 DDA's) plus up to ~100dps in laser complement. also gaining the extra turret helps create some incentive for laser use.

I may be missing something on the math but if i did it right that's ~610DPS with Gardes + FMP w/ multi.

570 DPS from ogre 2's alone with the same 2 DDA's and lowers the potential neut count by one in those fits to separate more from the curse.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1009 - 2013-10-05 03:33:20 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Do you think the only place I hack is on Sisi? I have done plenty on TQ. The only surprise I had was the 2 direct path mini games. Putting those aside, 7 hacking attempts were done 2 were givemes so I will discount those, 1 failed attempt, so 4 of 7 hacks were successful. That seems right for a Unbonused ship.

1 failed in 7 very realistic.
You have your position for whatever reason and the reality of other peoples experiences is not going to change that.
We are still requesting 10% virus strength. You do not need it.see the hopeful post below, this is what these ships are about!

How about you cough up your evidence this time, you claim that things are harder than I posted and have no proof.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Vrash Bone
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1010 - 2013-10-05 03:59:05 UTC
/me can't help but wonder if perhaps there wouldn't actually be a need for the introduction of "new" multi-purpose hulls if CCP hadn't gone off the rails a couple of expansions ago and decided to eff-up the ships we've been flying for years and years and years
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1011 - 2013-10-05 04:06:43 UTC
It does seem, with the lack of any kind of feedback from the CCP Rise, that these ships will be hitting Sisi as is. This will give us the chance to see if these glass cannon fits are real and if the stats are good to go.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Dehval
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#1012 - 2013-10-05 04:18:45 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
It does seem, with the lack of any kind of feedback from the CCP Rise, that these ships will be hitting Sisi as is. This will give us the chance to see if these glass cannon fits are real and if the stats are good to go.

There is only one glass cannon fit in the thread.

I mean unless you count that stupid gate camping sentry one I made 30 pages back. That wasn't supposed to be a serious fit.
Raamah
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#1013 - 2013-10-05 05:03:53 UTC
From what I'm seeing I would still choose a prophecy or legion if I were going dive into a c1 or 2... looks like it would be harder to get the ehp up to manageable levels (>50k) on the stratios. hope i'm wrong, a by-design scan/run/salvager that can solo some sleepers would be great. also I too would like more laser bonus. drones can be a real pain to manage against sleepers
Draiyman
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1014 - 2013-10-05 06:35:44 UTC
It would seem that there is a fair bit of premature "OP" cry-out in this thread.

If the Machariel had never been introduced into this game and was announced in this expansion, I feel that the its "OP" crowd in here would be outraged if it was described with its current stats as it stands in TQ. I mean a BS hull that is as fast as most cruisers in this game and puts out a ridiculous amount of DPS with either shield or armor fits must be OP. Interestingly enough there aren't 256 man fleets flying around in Mach's raping everything in sight.

Perhaps actually waiting to see how it (SOE Cruiser) functions in the game as it was announced and then judging it would be better. If it turns out to be way overpowered then something can be done to rebalance it.
Sir Mattsimus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1015 - 2013-10-05 07:09:01 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Eko Fromtv wrote:
50 pages in here's a t;dr: for any newcomers:

The cruiser is fine, either roll it out as is or put a laser bonus for maximum amarr/gallente authenticity.


Forgetting explorers again lol
+ 10% virus strengh please

FFS, now you are being dense. It was shown that null sites can be done with no bonus at all.

Nope just thought you were lucky, can't replicate your experience sorry.
Still requesting plus ten virus strength, can't rely on being lucky all the time

I can do that too.

I can't replicate you results either, so I will just say you have bad luck. And they can't obsolete an entire line of ships because someone is unlucky.


"And they can't obsolete an entire line of ships..."

I can't recall the last time I used a tech 1 exploration frigate for relic or data sites. Not since I skilled into a covert ops ship, especially now with the new virus mechanics.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1016 - 2013-10-05 07:28:32 UTC
Just a minor detail question, what flavor of sensors do these have? Radar or Magnetometric? I have one trained, just wondering if I should put the other in queue.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1017 - 2013-10-05 07:42:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Sir Mattsimus wrote:

"And they can't obsolete an entire line of ships..."

I can't recall the last time I used a tech 1 exploration frigate for relic or data sites. Not since I skilled into a covert ops ship, especially now with the new virus mechanics.

If they get a +10 virus strength, like some players are asking for, they will obsolete t2 exploration frigates.

Compairing Covert Ops Frigates to the Astero

Cost: Astero will be about 4x the cost
Spaceship command Skill: The Astero is much easier to get into.
Tank: The Astero has better raw HP than covert ops frigates and it gets a resistance bonus. so it wins hands down.
Evasion: Both can use covert ops cloaking devices, but the Astero will align in about half the time of a Cheetah.
Combat ability: Covert ops frigates can only do minimal damage, the Astero will be able to do close to 100 DPS before damage mods are taken into consideration.
Scanning: The Covert ops firgates do scan better, but that has more of an effect on ship scanning and less of signature scanning.
The only thing covert ops frigates will have in superority to the Astero is there virus strength, scanning, and cost. If the Astero gets a +10 virus strength why would anyone use a covert ops frigate.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Amakish
Snipes Incorporated UK
#1018 - 2013-10-05 08:01:09 UTC
Dehval wrote:
How does this look as a compromise? Parentheses denote old values.

===============

Stratios

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage.
Role Bonus: 25%(37.5) increase in Scan Prob Strength.
Role Bonus: +10(5) Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers.

Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking devices. 100% increase in targeting delay after decloaking.

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
7.5%(10) bonus to Drone hitpoints, tracking, and velocity per level.

Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 3(4) turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 920 PWG, 400 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1850(1950) / 2450(2400) / 2450
Capacitor (amount) : 1700
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 182 / .47 / 9350000 / 6.09s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 275 / 7
Sensor strength: 16(20)
Signature radius: 150
Cargo Capacity: 550

======
Reasoning

100% bonus to Energy turrets
Obvious reasoning. Makes you want to use lasers which was a design goal. An 100% bonused pulse laser will do more dps in Scorch than a Neutron Blaster in Void. This comes with a reduced 3 Hardpoints* and gives it an effective 6 turrets. 5 highs is enough space for the 3 turrets, 1 scanner, 1 cloak. Gives players a choice in slightly (60 or so) less dps vs having a salvager as well. Choices are good when you can make them.

*3 Hardpoints would still look nice on the ship's design guessing from the concept art, which cheats and has 6 total hardpoint pairs.

25% Scan strength and 10 virus strength.
We don't want this to be all around better than a scanning frigate or subsystem. But, it really needs to have 10 virus strength to make doing Null-sec relic/data sites reasonable without immense luck. 25% is more than enough of a scan bonus to find every site in the game, but doesn't doesn't start to overtake other scanning platforms in scan speed. These bonuses should also be applied to the frigate.

100% increase in targeting delay after decloaking.
This is not a surprise gank ship. It should not be a surprise gank ship. This penalty would harm decloak and smoke play style while not affecting PvE much at all.

7.5% bonus to Drone hitpoints, tracking, and velocity per level.
125m3 of bandwidth is a lot of drone firepower. Sentries and Heavies do a lot of damage on their own before damage bonuses and this ship does not particularly need that damage. However, a normal PvE fit will be likely using cap rechargers and analyzers so it would not have the mids to give its drones adequate application. This bonus gives the drones that much needed boost and now their theoretical dps will be very close to their applied dps. I chose not to include a 7.5% optimal to keep it both from competing with Ishtars/Domis as well as slightly restrict the strength of Sentries in a gang setting. Drone assist is a *****, and we don't need 100km Gardes coming out of a stealth ship.

Shield Reduction, Armor increase, and Sensor reduction
Shield Gank fit too good for killing battleships. Kill it with fire. 100 base shield removed should be about 1k-1.5k EHP top end I think. 50 armor increase won't do much to a shield gank (lacking the extenders), but supplies armor fits with a little bit more buffer to work with. The Lower sensor strength so it can get jammed out easier. Guristas rats ignore sensor strength for the purposes of jamming so it won't affect PvE at all.

A MAX GANK fit like this will only reach 935 dps with Gleam. Now, that is still a lot mind you, but it is nowhere near the deadly 1127 of the former and it is significantly harder to fit for. An average ratting fit would see you in the range of 450-680 depending on drone selection. Enough dps to down 6/10s, maybe a 7/10, and still enough to defend itself in PvP especially with the Drone damage application bonuses. Damage split is about 60/40 Drones to Lasers, so the majority of the damage can still pick its type.

=====

Thoughts?


see people this is how you discuss stuff in a rational manner....

this makes alot of sense to me
Sir Mattsimus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1019 - 2013-10-05 08:08:07 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sir Mattsimus wrote:

"And they can't obsolete an entire line of ships..."

I can't recall the last time I used a tech 1 exploration frigate for relic or data sites. Not since I skilled into a covert ops ship, especially now with the new virus mechanics.

If they get a +10 virus strength, like some players are asking for, they will obsolete t2 exploration frigates.

Compairing Covert Ops Frigates to the Astero

Cost: Astero will be about 4x the cost
Spaceship command Skill: The Astero is much easier to get into.
Tank: The Astero has better raw HP than covert ops frigates and it gets a resistance bonus. so it wins hands down.
Evasion: Both can use covert ops cloaking devices, but the Astero will align in about half the time of a Cheetah.
Combat ability: Covert ops frigates can only do minimal damage, the Astero will be able to do close to 100 DPS before damage mods are taken into consideration.
Scanning: The Covert ops firgates do scan better, but that has more of an effect on ship scanning and less of signature scanning.
The only thing covert ops frigates will have in superority to the Astero is there virus strength, scanning, and cost. If the Astero gets a +10 virus strength why would anyone use a covert ops frigate.


The best answer I can offer you is that the covert ops ship has superior scanning strength and as you stated is ¼ the cost so there's loss mitigation if the ship is destroyed.

I understand that rendering the covert ops frigate obsolete is a concern. But here is where I stand looking at these specs.

You said after your investigation on Sisi “So, the morale of this is, the +5 is well enough to do even null sec sites.” Even if that is true...

Well enough?
Well enough?!

If I'm going to spend 4x the ISK on a factions ship, an “exploration themed” Sisters of Eve faction ship, I don't expect it to perform “well enough” in data and relic sites.
I expect it to be awesome.
And do you know how it looks right now?

Very disappointing.

Something has to change, either the new factions ships, the covert ops frigates or both.
Because if these ships are released as they are now I will not be exploring in them. They will be all but “obsolete” to me the moment they hit the market.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1020 - 2013-10-05 08:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Draiyman wrote:
It would seem that there is a fair bit of premature "OP" cry-out in this thread.

If the Machariel had never been introduced into this game and was announced in this expansion, I feel that the its "OP" crowd in here would be outraged if it was described with its current stats as it stands in TQ. I mean a BS hull that is as fast as most cruisers in this game and puts out a ridiculous amount of DPS with either shield or armor fits must be OP. Interestingly enough there aren't 256 man fleets flying around in Mach's raping everything in sight.

Perhaps actually waiting to see how it (SOE Cruiser) functions in the game as it was announced and then judging it would be better. If it turns out to be way overpowered then something can be done to rebalance it.


Machariel doesn't come from highsec agents, this does. If people can do fleet doctrines based on navy battleships, they can afford these.

Quote:
The best answer I can offer you is that the covert ops ship has superior scanning strength and as you stated is ¼ the cost so there's loss mitigation if the ship is destroyed.


Covops frigs warp at 9 AU/sec, and will be even faster after the Rubicon patch. That's a huge advantage and is plenty to differentiate it from this cruiser.