Test Server Feedback

Hey CCP, CCP Tallest, and fellow pilots I like to shoot,

TL:DR; This is a simple, like for like comparison which should make it fairly obvious why Amarr battleship fleets are so popular and why some Caldari Ships need looking at.

While this might not be the right forum area for this, it is at the moment, given that right now the Hybrid balancing thread is the biggest in the test server feedback - and this post also discusses the impact of the new T2 Gang Links. My hope is, this feedback is heard, acted on, and that hopefully in the Winter Expansion future expansion both Caldari and Gallente are 'balanced' although this post focuses on Caldari and specifically Caldari Hybrid ships in fleets - it is NOT a request to buff Drakes!

Also, to be clear, my focus here is on Fleet combat, and when I say Fleet combat, I mean 20+ ships, with logistics support and using command ships, with buffer tanks, not active tanks.

For this, I have picked the most popular Amarr ships, Abaddon vs. Rokh - but critically - the support ships needed to make these two ships work well in PvP fleets. All fits are at the bottom. The command ships include relevant mind links, and slave and halo sets without omega due to mind link implant. Where possible they are overloaded to simulate actual tank when under fire. They also use the occasional, and relatively reasonable priced faction modules where possible and realistic.

Command Ships
Damnation
EHP: 565,286 (This is with T1 Gang Links, slave set, no overload possible, no cap for tank required)
Resists: 86.5 / 82.5 / 89.9 / 94.6
Signature: 265m
Speed: 170 m/s
DPS: 80

Vulture
EHP: 234,642 (This is with T1 Gang Links, halo set, overloaded for 2.5 minutes)
Resists: 86.9 / 93.5 / 90.2 / 83.7
Signature: 303m
Speed: 175 m/s
DPS: 121

Results: Both are fitted with Small Cap boosters, to negate cap draining to turn off the Gang Links. The Vulture needs cap to also keep the hardeners on unlike the Damnation.

Clearly, the Damnation has a very significant EHP increase, while the signature is also a third smaller. On top of that, it runs at almost the same speed as Caldari despite all the plate. While the damnation uses faction pieces, these are not unreasonable given that with such a large tank number, ship losses will be rarer. Neither ship does any real DPS, but the Damnation offers the addition of a ship able to Warp Disrupt and Web and there is still the option to fit it with a cyno for precisely this reason also. The addition of the new T2 Gang Links will only increase this tank number, and the overall Amarr advantage in comparison. Even without the implants, the Vulture loses out, remove the Halo set and it's signature rockets, while the Damnation loses 100,000 EHP, still offering twice the tank of the Vulture at a distinctly smaller signature.

Logistics
Guardian
EHP: 91,617 (overloaded hardners)
Resists: 88.8 / 88.2 / 91.6 / 87.4
Signature: 70m
Speed: 567 m/s
Tank being repaired by another Guardian: 4196
Sensor Strength: 37.2 (With ability to overload to 42.7)
Requires +1 CPU implant

Basilisk
EHP: 66,412 (overloaded hardners)
Resists: 82.6 / 91.3 / 87 / 82.4
Signature: 128m
Speed: 575 m/s
Tank being repaired by another Basilisk: 4212
Sensor Strength: 22 (No ability to overload if you want tank instead)
Requires +3% CPU implant

Results: Again, Amarr come out with significantly more EHP, and this is without a slave set installed! And I flew in an alliance that does use slave sets with these fits, pushing the tank well into battleship tank numbers. This is combined with a 40% smaller signature, and almost identical speed - again with plates in. This gives it a smaller signature than a interdictor and the old pre winter destroyers. How did that happen? The faction pieces for this fit are not that expensive, given the loss rate of these amazing tanked logistics.

The Basilisk, despite having the extra large shield transporter, again is only a handful of points ahead of the guardian tanking numbers when receiving shield transfer. This is with the shield recharge tank rate that adds a bit to these numbers. This costs it more CPU, and pushes the ship to need a +3% implant. To get this sort of tank number, which I would say it needs, it sacrifices a mid slot ECCM module, while needing a T2 Reactor Module to fit. If you remove the T2 shield transporters and use T1, you can get more flexibility, but at the expense of shield transfer. With that sort of fit, the Guardian then has twice the tanking numbers. Again, Amarr win this one easily.

I have previously posted about the Rokh vs Abaddon here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=312587#post312587

The overall issue here, is that Amarr can really push their tanking advantage well beyond that of any other race. When it comes to buffer tank, they win, and win in a big way. This is partly down to a distinct implant advantage, but the plates themselves give a lot of EHP.

Even with so much plate, Amarr are almost identical speeds to Caldari, who technically - should be lighter with shields despite their races slow speeds normally. Combine the larger signature, lower DPS, difficult fitting issues and Caldari are at a big disadvantage in EvE.

This is why so many fleets are Amarr fleets. Minmitar have speed to give them an edge - what do Caldari have in a toe to toe fight? Amarr get the unstoppable cap drain, Caldari get the random chance ECM that can be negated by ECCM fits to a large extent.

Giving this a brief bump, sorry, when I posted it, it was quickly knocked out the way by 'The stars are awesome' and 'WTF did you do the naga' threads ;-)

While I agree with everything said there (indeed it worries me that the Naga now does 25% more DPS than the Rokh) and I also agree about the new nebula and stars - I would like to at least fly ships other than Minmitar and Amarr in space.

I would like to get Caldari fleet ships the improvements they need to be relevant for PvP in fleets, I just want to make sure CCP see this one, because the numbers are so obviously distorted in Amarr favour, I can't see how they can't fix these ships and balance them.

In a nutshell; Caldari should be to shields what Amarr is to armor. But they aren't. And they aren't even close.

Feedback welcome.

Good post, good ideas +1

tallest said in the capital feedback tread that there are going to be shield slaves

Same here...

Shield slave, Extra-Large Shield Extender balanced in fitting so it helps Caldari BSs and some other ships (Vulture, Nighthawk, Logis, Sleipnir) to fit a good tank while having room in their meds to do some ewar/ECCM, and lower the CPU fitting of Large Shield Transporters to make Shield RR BSs fleets good would be a nice start.

Drop the fury missiles on damnation and its signature drops well below vulture.

I always found it stupid to make caldari with the biggest signature , they already the slowest and heaviest race,also shield tank increases its signature a lot, all caldari ships should have the lowest signature even lower than the matar by 5-10%.

It would make sense in rp too , small signature is a form of ewar vs enemy sensor locks.

Also i think there shouldnt be a new implant set for shield ehp , just remove slaves from capitals or make them into rep bonus.

Considering the fact that ehp does not take into consideration damage types and only works from overall resistances, nor does it consider signature or shield recharge rates, neither does it consider incoming reps or local reps; This post could be significantly shortened by just asking for 'ehp' to be redifined so your 'calculations' actually mean something.

I agree but need to throw in:

10% damage bonus is needed for the Rokh

The sign radius penalty for shield extenders needs to be reevaluated, otherwise CCP needs to bring the base speed of caldari ships up.

In all reality people (including myself) have said rails lack DPS... I am moving more into seeing them compare with Arties.

I think if 425's had maybe a little less alpha but longer range than 1400's they would be more viable.. right now it's not even close.

Hybrids still are pretty terrible, tracking is abysmal even with a TC running (and it takes a valuable mid slot).

I agree about the Rokh damage, I wasn't before so much, it should at least be on par with the Naga stats now, because now the Naga out DPS's it, and frankly - out tanks it even with it's reduce tanking numbers, the speed more than makes up for the slow Rokh.

The problem with reducing the sig radius is - Minmitar :) They don't need the buff.

Rails are still a bit underpowered, but personally I would like to take Rokhs out with Blasters and use them close range within 40km, and there are tactics to make those sort of fights happen. But even with Blasters though, they still are doing the same sort of DPS as lasers already do, but with slightly less range, and increased falloff.

And yeah... mid slot.

Which is why I made the suggestions I did. If resists are increased on the Caldari hybrid boats, then it helps make them viable in fleet, although it still doesn't give them enough EHP to survive in a fleet fight potentially, which is why the still need some base Shield HP.

Roughly speaking, the EHP and Resists need to be similar to Amarr. This still doesn't help them out as much given their reduced DPS, but the other factor to consider in balacing Caldari, is the role of the Basilisk in a fleet.

The Basilisk is supposed to be same sort of boat as the Guardian, i.e. a slow boat, with a good tank that able take the punch and roll with it, where as the other two races are more about staying out of harms way.

The Basilisk has an advantage in that shield transfer modules transfer at the start of their cycle, unlike remote armor repair modules, so can get reps on faster. But even with that extra ability and an extra T2 large shield transfer, it can't out repair the guardian when you compare the EHP and reps of the Caldari ships it would be transferring too.

So whatever is done to help Caldari, the Basilisk has to be carefully considered. My feeling is that, even if fleet Caldari ships were given similar resistance potential, and a similar EHP tank to Amarr - that the Basilisk should still have that extra shield transfer, to make up for the larger signature and reduced DPS on Caldari ships. Basilisks don't really help Minmitar fleets, because they are way too slow, and everyone seems to want to be killmail whores and fit a gun in that spare high slot on the Scimitars anyway.

So, the Basilisk still needs to have a tank, that is similar to a guardians, with the ability to have an ECCM module in the mid slot so it isn't so easy to jam as it is with a decent tank installed, and AB or MWD to make it balanced.

Boost the ships, not shields.

Drakes are hard enough to kill, we don't need more overtanked ships.

And the more you boost Oneiroses and Basilisks, the more we will see them on the battlefield, which is great, because right now, Scimis are what we all ask for in our fleets.