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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#841 - 2013-10-04 14:07:10 UTC
It's actually 6 seconds delay without cloaking 5 and it's actually often still enough to catch people. Even frigs, yes.

Truth is, most people panic when they see something decloak up in their grill. Server counts mercilessly in 1s ticks and escape isn't that certain - you need to pick a spot to warp to, click buttons and have 6-8s to do it before you're his.

Or to burst your MWD and try to pull range, but it is going to follow at least for a short few seconds before your advantage fully kicks in.

Of course, some are prepared for what's coming and are able to pick a warp-to, align out and go into warp before your combined delay + lock + scram delay (up to 1s depending on ticks) hits.

The 5s delay is crippling in every theory, yet many still die to cynoing recons and cloaky T3s, which share the same penalty....

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Quinn Corvez
Perkone
Caldari State
#842 - 2013-10-04 14:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Quinn Corvez
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I love all the people freaking out over the +5 virus strength, it is plenty enough for most all but the hardest sites in null sec and WH. But why should they spend 12 days to use T2 Analyzers when covert ops gives that to them as a hull bonus, therefore this ship should as well.

Maybe introduce SOE Analyzers for a considerable markup that mimic T2 but only require the appropriate skills to level 1, that way they can ***** they don't have enough coherence.


I don't think people are "freaking out" but a lot of people reasonably conclude that an exploration ship should be good at exploring...
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#843 - 2013-10-04 14:09:10 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The biggest, and I don't use that term lightly, the BIGGEST problem people have with this ship it the covert ops cloaking device.
But most of the time that amounts to any ship that can cloak. before this people cried about cloaky T3 were OP, not because they of the DPS or Tank, but the cloak.

Its mainly from the gate camping nullbears that think skilled PvP is surrounding a small gang with a blob of 120 ships. This lowers the effectiveness of the nullbears and enables the potential for guerilla attacks in their DED-farming sov systems so now these scared bears are speaking out against a ship that has potential to actually put them in risk.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#844 - 2013-10-04 14:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
But what ARE they meant to do? Because I'm an explorer and I won't be exploring in them.

Combat sites.

The virus bonus is here in case you want to fill your cargo with a juicy data/relic site you could encounter.

Or to clear the site you stole from someone you just killed.

And CCP said this feature (hacking) might be extended in the future beyond exploration.

And as an all-in-one ship, you are supposed not be as effective as specialized ships. It would be OP to be the best explration ship AND be the mightest of them all at the same time.


Combat sites? And hacking/archeology in lowsec “just in case”?
That's all?

Disappointing.

Very disappointing.

The best compromise that I can think of for not rendering the covert ops frigate completely obsolete is this:
Give the Astero +10 virus strength.
Give the Stratios probe launcher fitting bonuses.

In this way the Astero will be optimal at running hacking/archeology sites and the Stratios will be optimal for using combat probes.
But only the covert ops frigate will be optimal for both, not mention it's superior scanning strength. And so it will still have a place.

But if these ships are to be released as they are...
Then I will continue to probe and explore.
With my SOE probe launcher.
And my SOE probes.
And MAYBE EVEN my SOE low grade Virtue implants.

But you will NEVER see me in an SOE ship.

Does that seem right to any of you?
It seems terribly wrong to me.

Totally agree with your sentiments but the stratios should not be crippled just to make the covert ops owners happy, these are due their rebalancing, and they can gain whatever is needed then. The stratios can excell in wormhole sites, does it seem right that it cannot open the cans?

Let the people who are concerned have the dps balance, we can gain extra drone damage resistance, so we can still do the pve. Truly neither of these ships should carry combat probe launchers.that is not an exploration role.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#845 - 2013-10-04 14:12:45 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
It's actually 6 seconds delay without cloaking 5 and it's actually often still enough to catch people. Even frigs, yes.

Truth is, most people panic when they see something decloak up in their grill. Server counts mercilessly in 1s ticks and escape isn't that certain - you need to pick a spot to warp to, click buttons and have 6-8s to do it before you're his.

Or to burst your MWD and try to pull range, but it is going to follow at least for a short few seconds before your advantage fully kicks in.

Of course, some are prepared for what's coming and are able to pick a warp-to, align out and go into warp before your combined delay + lock + scram delay (up to 1s depending on ticks) hits.

The 5s delay is crippling in every theory, yet many still die to cynoing recons and cloaky T3s, which share the same penalty....

People die to velators, yet velators are hardly OP...

Stupidity and badness should never ever be balancing factors.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#846 - 2013-10-04 14:14:05 UTC
Quinn Corvez wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I love all the people freaking out over the +5 virus strength, it is plenty enough for most all but the hardest sites in null sec and WH. But why should they spend 12 days to use T2 Analyzers when covert ops gives that to them as a hull bonus, therefore this ship should as well.

Maybe introduce SOE Analyzers for a considerable markup that mimic T2 but only require the appropriate skills to level 1, that way they can ***** they don't have enough coherence.


I don't think people are "freaking out" but a lot of people reasonably conclude that an exploration ship should be good at exploring...

So many are complaining that the ship is worthless at hacking without a +10 bonus, and it is not.

Also, exploration includes combat sites that are scanned down as well, so in reality this ship is the epitome of exploration.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#847 - 2013-10-04 14:15:58 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The biggest, and I don't use that term lightly, the BIGGEST problem people have with this ship it the covert ops cloaking device.
But most of the time that amounts to any ship that can cloak. before this people cried about cloaky T3 were OP, not because they of the DPS or Tank, but the cloak.

Its mainly from the gate camping nullbears that think skilled PvP is surrounding a small gang with a blob of 120 ships. This lowers the effectiveness of the nullbears and enables the potential for guerilla attacks in their DED-farming sov systems so now these scared bears are speaking out against a ship that has potential to actually put them in risk.


What would be a day without glorious mudslinging and calling people nullbears. Heheh, gotta love EVE-O. Those ships actually exist, are called Covert/Nullified T3s and they've been recently buffed to use covert cynos. Before that it was recons, and overall it's blops gangs.

And I don't really see any hisec scrubs conducting guerilla attacks on anom-rich DED systems. It's mostly done by other null groups.

All in all, judging from a lack of Dev input those things may just hit TQ more or less unaltered. And then there will be a torrent of "remove Stratios from the premises" threads all over the forums.

As for fearing Stratios/Asteros blackops gangs? That would not exactly be an unjustified fear...

...to put it mildly.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#848 - 2013-10-04 14:16:00 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Quinn Corvez wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I love all the people freaking out over the +5 virus strength, it is plenty enough for most all but the hardest sites in null sec and WH. But why should they spend 12 days to use T2 Analyzers when covert ops gives that to them as a hull bonus, therefore this ship should as well.

Maybe introduce SOE Analyzers for a considerable markup that mimic T2 but only require the appropriate skills to level 1, that way they can ***** they don't have enough coherence.


I don't think people are "freaking out" but a lot of people reasonably conclude that an exploration ship should be good at exploring...

So many are complaining that the ship is worthless at hacking without a +10 bonus, and it is not.

Also, exploration includes combat sites that are scanned down as well, so in reality this ship is the epitome of exploration.

We explorers disagree.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#849 - 2013-10-04 14:21:38 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Quinn Corvez wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I love all the people freaking out over the +5 virus strength, it is plenty enough for most all but the hardest sites in null sec and WH. But why should they spend 12 days to use T2 Analyzers when covert ops gives that to them as a hull bonus, therefore this ship should as well.

Maybe introduce SOE Analyzers for a considerable markup that mimic T2 but only require the appropriate skills to level 1, that way they can ***** they don't have enough coherence.


I don't think people are "freaking out" but a lot of people reasonably conclude that an exploration ship should be good at exploring...

So many are complaining that the ship is worthless at hacking without a +10 bonus, and it is not.

Also, exploration includes combat sites that are scanned down as well, so in reality this ship is the epitome of exploration.

We explorers disagree.

I am an explorer, I have used everything form a covert ops frigate to a t3, battle cruisers fit for exploration, cruisers fit for exploration.

My favorite ships to explore in don't have any kind of virus or scanning bonus to them at all, no rigs or implants either and I seem to do just fine.

My T3 only is used for the cloak and interdiction nullifier, I like the emergent locus analyzer for the probe bonus, but the virus strength is just a side effect because I used it long before the virus strength was even a thing.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#850 - 2013-10-04 14:28:18 UTC
There's some merit to a +10 bonus. However, +5 is fine with relevant skills to 5 and T2 modules.

Some minigame boards in 0.0, especially "reds" are an absolute and utter ****. Hey let's stack 3 restoration nodes in a row and buff it up with two dampers for kciks because why not. If you work it out - you most of the time can go through and the core without problems, but there's always those times where you just run into a **** setup.

That said, +10 would be just all-out better than the covops. It's meant to be better than the T1 frigs and it is - it, in theory can defend itself.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#851 - 2013-10-04 14:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Quinn Corvez wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I love all the people freaking out over the +5 virus strength, it is plenty enough for most all but the hardest sites in null sec and WH. But why should they spend 12 days to use T2 Analyzers when covert ops gives that to them as a hull bonus, therefore this ship should as well.

Maybe introduce SOE Analyzers for a considerable markup that mimic T2 but only require the appropriate skills to level 1, that way they can ***** they don't have enough coherence.


I don't think people are "freaking out" but a lot of people reasonably conclude that an exploration ship should be good at exploring...

So many are complaining that the ship is worthless at hacking without a +10 bonus, and it is not.

Also, exploration includes combat sites that are scanned down as well, so in reality this ship is the epitome of exploration.

We explorers disagree.

I am an explorer, I have used everything form a covert ops frigate to a t3, battle cruisers fit for exploration, cruisers fit for exploration.

My favorite ships to explore in don't have any kind of virus or scanning bonus to them at all, no rigs or implants either and I seem to do just fine.

My T3 only is used for the cloak and interdiction nullifier, I like the emergent locus analyzer for the probe bonus, but the virus strength is just a side effect because I used it long before the virus strength was even a thing.

Ok you are highly experience, highly skilled, and lots of exploration experience,would you bother buying either of these ships for relic and data sites?
No thought not, if you wouldn't who else would.
How much are you running data and relic sites? Do you bother? Do you care? Or do you have better things to do now with your skills and time.
we others are trying to make the best of the exploration theme as it exists, we are having to contend with the issues of the minigame and loot spew whilst trying to stay alive.
For the first time there are ships that could do the job they were meant to, why begrudge us that?
Do you gain from us not being able to have them?

I am pleased for you that having played for such a long time you have a vast number of things to do.
We do not.
You will say get over it skill up.
Sure
Why bother with the soe ships then.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#852 - 2013-10-04 14:29:42 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I have absolutely no problem with balancing the firepower on these ships to prevent them being overpowered.
I have a massive issue where explorers are getting drowned out by all the noise when the elephant in the room is that these are being nerfed out of existance as explorers.

For those who say lol 5% virus strength is enough, hey 50 dps is enough in the starter missions.try either in null.really actually try it they ain't even nearly the same.
With that you would die outside of hisec and I would not bother exploring there as most of the cans would blow up in my face..




Fact is, PVP is vastly more present and central to even than exploration, therefore you cannot make somethign that breaks PVP completely, specially since broken in PVP usually means much larger disaster than broken in PVE.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#853 - 2013-10-04 14:31:17 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I love all the people freaking out over the +5 virus strength, it is plenty enough for most all but the hardest sites in null sec and WH. But why should they spend 12 days to use T2 Analyzers when covert ops gives that to them as a hull bonus, therefore this ship should as well.

Maybe introduce SOE Analyzers for a considerable markup that mimic T2 but only require the appropriate skills to level 1, that way they can ***** they don't have enough coherence.

An exploration ship with 5% virus strength is as much use in lowsec as a combat battleship with no turret and 10mb drone bandwidth.



Like for example a raven that already lost his drones?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#854 - 2013-10-04 14:31:25 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I have absolutely no problem with balancing the firepower on these ships to prevent them being overpowered.
I have a massive issue where explorers are getting drowned out by all the noise when the elephant in the room is that these are being nerfed out of existance as explorers.

For those who say lol 5% virus strength is enough, hey 50 dps is enough in the starter missions.try either in null.really actually try it they ain't even nearly the same.
With that you would die outside of hisec and I would not bother exploring there as most of the cans would blow up in my face..




Fact is, PVP is vastly more present and central to even than exploration, therefore you cannot make somethign that breaks PVP completely, specially since broken in PVP usually means much larger disaster than broken in PVE.


I do not disagree. Please also consider the explorers concerns.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#855 - 2013-10-04 14:35:43 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

We explorers disagree.

I am an explorer, I have used everything form a covert ops frigate to a t3, battle cruisers fit for exploration, cruisers fit for exploration.

My favorite ships to explore in don't have any kind of virus or scanning bonus to them at all, no rigs or implants either and I seem to do just fine.

My T3 only is used for the cloak and interdiction nullifier, I like the emergent locus analyzer for the probe bonus, but the virus strength is just a side effect because I used it long before the virus strength was even a thing.

Ok you are highly experience, highly skilled, and lots of exploration experience,would you bother buying either of these ships for relic and data sites?
No thought not, if you wouldn't who else would.
How much are you running data and relic sites? Do you bother? Do you care? Or do you have better things to do now with your skills and time.
we others are trying to make the best of the exploration theme as it exists, we are having to contend with the issues of the minigame and loot spew whilst trying to stay alive.
For the first time there are ships that could do the job they were meant to, why begrudge us that?
Do you gain from us not being able to have them?

I am pleased for you that having played for such a long time you have a vast number of things to do.
We do not.
You will say get over it skill up.
Sure
Why bother with the soe ships then.

I explore on a daily basis, it is what I do in eve. I will love flying this ship, it will be the best in what it does.

Yes I will say to skill up and use t2 analyzers if you want to be able to do the hardest sites, that is just common sense. You wouldn't expect to be able to do harder DED sites with t1 guns and a t1 tank would you?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#856 - 2013-10-04 14:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

We explorers disagree.

I am an explorer, I have used everything form a covert ops frigate to a t3, battle cruisers fit for exploration, cruisers fit for exploration.

My favorite ships to explore in don't have any kind of virus or scanning bonus to them at all, no rigs or implants either and I seem to do just fine.

My T3 only is used for the cloak and interdiction nullifier, I like the emergent locus analyzer for the probe bonus, but the virus strength is just a side effect because I used it long before the virus strength was even a thing.

Ok you are highly experience, highly skilled, and lots of exploration experience,would you bother buying either of these ships for relic and data sites?
No thought not, if you wouldn't who else would.
How much are you running data and relic sites? Do you bother? Do you care? Or do you have better things to do now with your skills and time.
we others are trying to make the best of the exploration theme as it exists, we are having to contend with the issues of the minigame and loot spew whilst trying to stay alive.
For the first time there are ships that could do the job they were meant to, why begrudge us that?
Do you gain from us not being able to have them?

I am pleased for you that having played for such a long time you have a vast number of things to do.
We do not.
You will say get over it skill up.
Sure
Why bother with the soe ships then.

I explore on a daily basis, it is what I do in eve. I will love flying this ship, it will be the best in what it does.

Yes I will say to skill up and use t2 analyzers if you want to be able to do the hardest sites, that is just common sense. You wouldn't expect to be able to do harder DED sites with t1 guns and a t1 tank would you?


We are not looking for a press button win scenario, you know how hard these are, and you know that + 10 virus strength is not going to make all that much difference, t2 analysers and the extra coherence in the last level of training are a greater help.

We want it so it is at least sometimes possible, with +5 it is never possible without great luck.
Surely you agree that sometimes possible encourages people to persist and grow?
The same comment applies however with only vs+5 what is the point of these SOE ships?better combat?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#857 - 2013-10-04 14:42:22 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I have absolutely no problem with balancing the firepower on these ships to prevent them being overpowered.
I have a massive issue where explorers are getting drowned out by all the noise when the elephant in the room is that these are being nerfed out of existance as explorers.

For those who say lol 5% virus strength is enough, hey 50 dps is enough in the starter missions.try either in null.really actually try it they ain't even nearly the same.
With that you would die outside of hisec and I would not bother exploring there as most of the cans would blow up in my face..




Fact is, PVP is vastly more present and central to even than exploration, therefore you cannot make somethign that breaks PVP completely, specially since broken in PVP usually means much larger disaster than broken in PVE.


I do not disagree. Please also consider the explorers concerns.



maybe some drawback that matters more in PVP. Something like weaker Sensor strenght? Or a low scan resolution (making easier to scape from these? )

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#858 - 2013-10-04 14:43:56 UTC
Things used to be easier with gun exploring. You'd need some firepower and tank to go after those sites and nobody complained, it was a no-brainer: there's rats, need firepower for goods.

Now rats are one and everyone who can get his hump in an Imicus or Heron thinks he's an explorer Blink with warp stabs in lows. Eh, miss the days when Decryptors sold for ten-twenty times today's price.

Now, onto the ships again:

What's supposed to be said was said, I guess and is now up to CCP to consider. +1 high slot for the Astero for the sake of fitting variability and viability and another look at the bonuses/layout for the Stratios. Maybe they'll brainstorm up something more than us a bunch of stubborn burros each tugging the cart his own way can cook up.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#859 - 2013-10-04 14:47:08 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I have absolutely no problem with balancing the firepower on these ships to prevent them being overpowered.
I have a massive issue where explorers are getting drowned out by all the noise when the elephant in the room is that these are being nerfed out of existance as explorers.

For those who say lol 5% virus strength is enough, hey 50 dps is enough in the starter missions.try either in null.really actually try it they ain't even nearly the same.
With that you would die outside of hisec and I would not bother exploring there as most of the cans would blow up in my face..




Fact is, PVP is vastly more present and central to even than exploration, therefore you cannot make somethign that breaks PVP completely, specially since broken in PVP usually means much larger disaster than broken in PVE.


I do not disagree. Please also consider the explorers concerns.



maybe some drawback that matters more in PVP. Something like weaker Sensor strenght? Or a low scan resolution (making easier to scape from these? )

Give them the Marauder treatment? That is not a bad idea.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#860 - 2013-10-04 14:52:29 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I have absolutely no problem with balancing the firepower on these ships to prevent them being overpowered.
I have a massive issue where explorers are getting drowned out by all the noise when the elephant in the room is that these are being nerfed out of existance as explorers.

For those who say lol 5% virus strength is enough, hey 50 dps is enough in the starter missions.try either in null.really actually try it they ain't even nearly the same.
With that you would die outside of hisec and I would not bother exploring there as most of the cans would blow up in my face..




Fact is, PVP is vastly more present and central to even than exploration, therefore you cannot make somethign that breaks PVP completely, specially since broken in PVP usually means much larger disaster than broken in PVE.


I do not disagree. Please also consider the explorers concerns.



maybe some drawback that matters more in PVP. Something like weaker Sensor strenght? Or a low scan resolution (making easier to scape from these? )

Give them the Marauder treatment? That is not a bad idea.


Does not need to be severe. Just noticeable. Make them lock at the rate that BC do instead of cruisers?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"