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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#821 - 2013-10-04 13:03:18 UTC
I love all the people freaking out over the +5 virus strength, it is plenty enough for most all but the hardest sites in null sec and WH. But why should they spend 12 days to use T2 Analyzers when covert ops gives that to them as a hull bonus, therefore this ship should as well.

Maybe introduce SOE Analyzers for a considerable markup that mimic T2 but only require the appropriate skills to level 1, that way they can ***** they don't have enough coherence.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#822 - 2013-10-04 13:04:51 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
If you are going to introduce these ships as they are, it seems wrong to market them as exploration themed vessels.
I consider myself to be an avid explorer but I will never buy these ships.



Thank you! 100% true, please CCP RISE listen to this man!


The ship is not supposed to make covops completely obsolete...
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#823 - 2013-10-04 13:05:23 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I love all the people freaking out over the +5 virus strength, it is plenty enough for most all but the hardest sites in null sec and WH. But why should they spend 12 days to use T2 Analyzers when covert ops gives that to them as a hull bonus, therefore this ship should as well.

Maybe introduce SOE Analyzers for a considerable markup that mimic T2 but only require the appropriate skills to level 1, that way they can ***** they don't have enough coherence.

An exploration ship with 5% virus strength is as much use in lowsec as a combat battleship with no turret and 10mb drone bandwidth.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#824 - 2013-10-04 13:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
If you are going to introduce these ships as they are, it seems wrong to market them as exploration themed vessels.
I consider myself to be an avid explorer but I will never buy these ships.



Thank you! 100% true, please CCP RISE listen to this man!


The ship is not supposed to make covops completely obsolete...


Why not? They have not had their rebance yet.
Your argument applies to any new ship class, but yet they come.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Sir Mattsimus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#825 - 2013-10-04 13:07:24 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
If you are going to introduce these ships as they are, it seems wrong to market them as exploration themed vessels.
I consider myself to be an avid explorer but I will never buy these ships.



Thank you! 100% true, please CCP RISE listen to this man!


The ship is not supposed to make covops completely obsolete...


But what ARE they meant to do? Because I'm an explorer and I won't be exploring in them.
Shamus Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#826 - 2013-10-04 13:14:17 UTC
These new ships are pretty awesome for exploration im really excited about the cruiser for the ability to run low sites, although it is a bit odd the way there are no launcher slots I'd be good to have at least two because most covert ops pilots (who'd be using them the most) are trained in launchers but only about a quarter of them trained for energy turrets if that. And it would expand the options for fits cause its a non faction ship that has few high slot fits which is slightly boring.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#827 - 2013-10-04 13:17:03 UTC
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
But what ARE they meant to do? Because I'm an explorer and I won't be exploring in them.

Combat sites.

The virus bonus is here in case you want to fill your cargo with a juicy data/relic site you could encounter.

Or to clear the site you stole from someone you just killed.

And CCP said this feature (hacking) might be extended in the future beyond exploration.

And as an all-in-one ship, you are supposed not be as effective as specialized ships. It would be OP to be the best explration ship AND be the mightest of them all at the same time.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#828 - 2013-10-04 13:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
If you are going to introduce these ships as they are, it seems wrong to market them as exploration themed vessels.
I consider myself to be an avid explorer but I will never buy these ships.



Thank you! 100% true, please CCP RISE listen to this man!


The ship is not supposed to make covops completely obsolete...


But what ARE they meant to do? Because I'm an explorer and I won't be exploring in them.



I too was extremely excited, at last SOE Ships, but no just another disappointment.
When the gnosis came out it was described as exactly what we needed, but instead it was totally useless for it's role no virus bonus? What was that about, apart from combat or comedy fits they stay in hisec or in bubblewrap in someones hangar.

We explorers are not shouty, we get drowned out by the combat and gank fit pilots and those who do not want to see change, covert ops ships can just about do an exploration role but it was just tacked on as an afterthought, these ships have the potential to be great!
But........
If they do not have real exploration bonuses, we will see more ships in eve just as unloved as the prettyest ship in existance, but absolutely useless.

We need virus strength, not in hisec but in the wild dangerous reaches of eve, in nullsec far from bases, in wormholes, and in places where people fear to tread unless in a fleet.

Give us our 10% at least in virus strength no hell give us 20 because for those who do not do the difficuilt places it is really really hard!

We believe you do mean it when you talk about exploration CCP Rise, but we get drowned out by all the noise.

If we step on covert ops toes, so be it, useless exploration ship anyway, buff it to do it's primary role of being a covert ops ship if need be you do not make your second child ugly because the first will be jealous.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#829 - 2013-10-04 13:43:35 UTC
You are aware that the Stratios is replacing the ishtar entirely and make some other gallente drone boats look mediocre.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#830 - 2013-10-04 13:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
thoth rothschild wrote:
You are aware that the Stratios is replacing the ishtar entirely and make some other gallente drone boats look mediocre.

Nexor is a better sentry sniper than this ship
It only replaces the Ishtar as a exploration fit ship, not really a loss there.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#831 - 2013-10-04 13:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
thoth rothschild wrote:
You are aware that the Stratios is replacing the ishtar entirely and make some other gallente drone boats look mediocre.

No it isn't

Look up the specs, bonuses, resists on the ishtar.

Ishtar would massacre this.
This would massacre a vexor.
Wheres your issue.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#832 - 2013-10-04 13:50:06 UTC
My issue is cloak + armor resists with drone bonus and double armor / hull/shield than ishtar
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#833 - 2013-10-04 13:51:33 UTC
The main thing about gank fits (Lol void shield) is the fact that they wouldn't be useful in a real-world scenario...

...unless the gankfit itself was a cloaky ship capable of sneaking up on you, decloaking right up in your business and unloading its overheated void into your grill.

Oh wait. It is said ship.

I agree that putting Ogres on it is laughable since they won't really hit anything but a Battleship and just project paper DPS. That said I bet a flight of hammers with neutrons up won't be too shabby either.

But I digress. The Stratios is 100% fine! I'm sure noone sane in this world will try a shield tanked, nano dda/magstab neutron Stratios. I'm sure that person will give its prey time to run away before melting it down with blasters. I'm also sure piles of victims won't clog the forums crying for a nerf.

The scary thing is that the people saying "nerf" in this thread are the same people who'd break the hell out of that ship if it were to be released in its current form.

We're not saying Stratios, on its own, is imbalanced. It's perfectly okay to have a cruiser of this firepower on the board. It's the fact that it's a covert one that gives it insane potential for imbalance. It's the fact that on the go you're likely to dictate the engagement range and sometimes have the advantage of surprising your opponent.

Of course, it won't dictate range well vs say, a Vagabond. Or a Cynabal, that will kite it out of blaster range and pepper with ACs to death. That's why said pilot will not engage a boat like this - due to the fact that the ship has a covert cloak it can avoid a fight it doesn't want to pick. Never underestimate the power of a cloaking device.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#834 - 2013-10-04 13:54:40 UTC
what makes me scared is the part of black ops + stratios roaming gang :)
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#835 - 2013-10-04 13:59:10 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
About the Stratios : 850dps look good on paper, but any blaster or drone navy cruiser and above does this. Navy Vexor, Navy Exequror, Ishtar and I guess the Deimos too ; not to mention pirate cruisers and combat BC which will eat it for breakfast. And all of these ships will have at least a comparable tank than the Stratios, if not better.

So the only things the Stratios will gank will be *lone* T1 cruisers... I'm fine with that. On top of that, the godly 850 dps fit of doom is a brawler fit, which mean that you are very vulnerable ennemy renforcement. Compare it even to a Talos would you ? A Talos is faster, and have comparable but *applyable* dps, tested on field, and considering Ogres, it also have more range than a Stratios. It have less buffer, but it's a real kiting ship at least. Plate it, and you'll have same tank, more speed and still the same dps, but you'll have easier time applying it... And yet, the Talos cost a fraction of the price of this Stratios.

Mens, this is 2013 : Tiericide came by and the ships are not in their 2011 state anymore. All navy cruisers are powerhouse for example and all the Stratios have over them is its cloak, and it will cost you a fair price.

So the only problem is the mostly psychological factor of the cloak. Why only psychological ? Because you wont gank anything more than with a cloaky T3 or even a recon cruiser, because the ship only traded tank for dps compared to them. And for nullsec, the ship is way too fragile to be cost effective.

The only place it might shine in is with covert cyno gang, otherwise it's not anywhere close to be cost effective.

So yes, the lone pvper will be able to pick its fights : T1 cruisers. Brawlers need to be avoided and kiters should be able to flee before you tackle them (5s timer + lock time, most cruiser can flee in this time). You'll be able to gank pve bears not paying attention (again, 5s timer). And that's it.

For me it's cool, and we reached the limit a cloaky cruiser can have, but all things condsidered, it's not more powerful than any other pirate ship (damn, a Machariel is faster, and for this price, you can have a navy hurricane with the same speed)
this.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#836 - 2013-10-04 14:00:24 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
We're not saying Stratios, on its own, is imbalanced. It's perfectly okay to have a cruiser of this firepower on the board. It's the fact that it's a covert one that gives it insane potential for imbalance. It's the fact that on the go you're likely to dictate the engagement range and sometimes have the advantage of surprising your opponent.

Of course, it won't dictate range well vs say, a Vagabond. Or a Cynabal, that will kite it out of blaster range and pepper with ACs to death. That's why said pilot will not engage a boat like this - due to the fact that the ship has a covert cloak it can avoid a fight it doesn't want to pick. Never underestimate the power of a cloaking device.

The cloak have a targeting delay. 5 seconds don't look that much, but it is in fact : your ennemy will either have the speed to flee, or worse to get in its own range or he will probably be able to fight back and you certainly don't want that.

The only ship you can reliably fight are T1 cruisers, and even them can be dangerous if you're not cautious enough. Problem is, most of them will be able to warp out before you can lock them.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#837 - 2013-10-04 14:01:47 UTC
I have absolutely no problem with balancing the firepower on these ships to prevent them being overpowered.
I have a massive issue where explorers are getting drowned out by all the noise when the elephant in the room is that these are being nerfed out of existance as explorers.

For those who say lol 5% virus strength is enough, hey 50 dps is enough in the starter missions.try either in null.really actually try it they ain't even nearly the same.
With that you would die outside of hisec and I would not bother exploring there as most of the cans would blow up in my face..

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#838 - 2013-10-04 14:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Trii Seo wrote:
stuff

The ship is just fine, with the exception of the laser bonus (should be optimal).

Without Ogres, the ship gets mediocre DPS with Hammerheads. The whole point of the ship IS to be able to sneak around and gank. A 400 DPS cruiser with a cloak is fine with me, and 800 DPS with Ogres is just fine too, as that damage can only be applied to stationary ships in reality. The ship is fine. EFT DPS is not real DPS, and the people that nano shield tank, expecting their blasters and Ogres to kill the hostile before the 10 second lock delay is up, will be very disappointed.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#839 - 2013-10-04 14:03:43 UTC
The biggest, and I don't use that term lightly, the BIGGEST problem people have with this ship it the covert ops cloaking device.
But most of the time that amounts to any ship that can cloak. before this people cried about cloaky T3 were OP, not because they of the DPS or Tank, but the cloak.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Sir Mattsimus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#840 - 2013-10-04 14:03:48 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sir Mattsimus wrote:
But what ARE they meant to do? Because I'm an explorer and I won't be exploring in them.

Combat sites.

The virus bonus is here in case you want to fill your cargo with a juicy data/relic site you could encounter.

Or to clear the site you stole from someone you just killed.

And CCP said this feature (hacking) might be extended in the future beyond exploration.

And as an all-in-one ship, you are supposed not be as effective as specialized ships. It would be OP to be the best explration ship AND be the mightest of them all at the same time.


Combat sites? And hacking/archeology in lowsec “just in case”?
That's all?

Disappointing.

Very disappointing.

The best compromise that I can think of for not rendering the covert ops frigate completely obsolete is this:
Give the Astero +10 virus strength.
Give the Stratios probe launcher fitting bonuses.

In this way the Astero will be optimal at running hacking/archeology sites and the Stratios will be optimal for using combat probes.
But only the covert ops frigate will be optimal for both, not mention it's superior scanning strength. And so it will still have a place.

But if these ships are to be released as they are...
Then I will continue to probe and explore.
With my SOE probe launcher.
And my SOE probes.
And MAYBE EVEN my SOE low grade Virtue implants.

But you will NEVER see me in an SOE ship.

Does that seem right to any of you?
It seems terribly wrong to me.