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Question for CCP - Is this RMT officially allowed?

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Ryhss
#121 - 2013-09-29 17:56:02 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
/facepalm

/headdesk

I just turned into an egg, did I level up? I spent an hour trying to salvage a wreck, when in local a guy said "Stop it, this is my Tempest, I was AFK"
Morphisat
Millard Innovation Inc
#122 - 2013-09-29 18:55:18 UTC
Apparently, since CCP is giving them exclusive ships. Also that Markee Dragon guy was in the community spotlight a while back. His history of botting and RMTing in other games apperently didn't matter either. Evil
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#123 - 2013-09-30 11:08:42 UTC
I'm not to fussed about the past. I'm more interested in finding out here and now, is this form of RMT allowed? If it is, RMT sites will be able to change their terminology and operate within the rules, which will pretty much break EVE. If it's not, Somer needs to be shut down.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Maaaaowm Ogeko
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#124 - 2013-09-30 12:01:26 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
I assume Somerset Mahm is a play on Somerset Mom? Would that be Somerset New Jersey? Somerset County Maryland? Is there taxes being paid on this referral program? Is it a legit business? Should be public information.


Cry
Deka Ekato
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2013-10-03 10:47:59 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Hi CCP
With the recent news of the collaboration between CCP and Somer blink, a lot of people have been throwing around a lot of questions to which they have received no answer. One question stands though that I feel needs an official response.

Somer blink offers isk incentives for buying GTCs though them, which in turn pays them a referral fee. This offering of ISK is no different from any other form of RMT. By giving you their isk they earn money, it's pretty much that simple. It converts Somer's isk to cash.

So the questions are:
1. Is this allowed?
2. If so, why is this allowed?
3. If any other entity wanted to pay people isk to buy GTCs through their referral, would they be banned (so specifically, is Somer receiving special treatment)?
4. Why does this form of income not go against section 2A of the EULA (which states accounts can't be run for business or profit)?

Thanks

Lucas


CCP, can we please have some sort of clarification on this soon, please. The community would greatly appreciate it. Please CCP, please.
Lady Areola Fappington
#126 - 2013-10-03 11:22:52 UTC
Easy fix:

Separate non-ISK credit from ISK credit. Prevent the non-ISK credit (deals from GTC and such) from being cashed out, until it goes through at least one blink.

Honestly to me, if feels no different than the "Use my referral to register an acct, I'll give you 200mil ISK (no PLEX registrations plz)" you see everywhere.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Ethan Snow
Always Brave
#127 - 2013-10-03 12:05:13 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Prevent the non-ISK credit (deals from GTC and such) from being cashed out, until it goes through at least one blink..


That is how it works. You have to gamble the bonus credit. You can't cash it out without playing.

The people complaining are just more goon shiptoasting squad.
Lady Areola Fappington
#128 - 2013-10-03 12:12:48 UTC
Ethan Snow wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Prevent the non-ISK credit (deals from GTC and such) from being cashed out, until it goes through at least one blink..


That is how it works. You have to gamble the bonus credit. You can't cash it out without playing.

The people complaining are just more goon shiptoasting squad.



Danke, I personally don't gamble myself. I just don't see it as RMT in that case. Even if it is, CCP does similar with the "seduce a newbie into EVE, have a PLEX" deal.

Now, if SOMER let you directly convert credits into ISK, or offered special blinks that made the conversion a trivial matter, THEN I'd start having issues.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#129 - 2013-10-03 13:40:56 UTC
Ethan Snow wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Prevent the non-ISK credit (deals from GTC and such) from being cashed out, until it goes through at least one blink..


That is how it works. You have to gamble the bonus credit. You can't cash it out without playing.

The people complaining are just more goon shiptoasting squad.

Erm no... we are not shiptoasting. From the fact that 80% of the "credit" still becomes isk for a player (perhaps not the buyer) they are STILL selling isk for cash, they just aren;t specific as to who gets it. Not to mention that you can buyout a whole blink yourself, guaranteeing you win the credit as isk.

But in short:
Somer gets cash
Players get isk.
THAT IS RMT.

The fact they they openly launder it in front of CCP is beside the point.

Lets cut to the chase though.
CCP don't care about them RMTing because it makes CCP money too. That's the end result of this. CCPs claim that they are against RMT is a load of bull. They are fully happy with RMT as long as some of the proceeds go to them.
If another gambling site were to start up giving away credit for buying a non-CCP item through them, CCP would shut them down in a heartbeat.

All we want clarification for here is if we want to sell GTC through an affiliate for a referral fee, can we all RMT our isk, or is it restricted to Somer only?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#130 - 2013-10-03 13:45:41 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Honestly to me, if feels no different than the "Use my referral to register an acct, I'll give you 200mil ISK (no PLEX registrations plz)" you see everywhere.
It's different from this, as they are paying you isk, and receiving a plex. Neither side gets cash, that goes to CCP.

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Now, if SOMER let you directly convert credits into ISK, or offered special blinks that made the conversion a trivial matter, THEN I'd start having issues.
It is incredibly trivial to convert the credit. Just you have to remember that when you get the credit, you'll lose 20% converting it. But that would just be considered a transaction fee of sorts.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Prince Kobol
#131 - 2013-10-03 13:53:48 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Honestly to me, if feels no different than the "Use my referral to register an acct, I'll give you 200mil ISK (no PLEX registrations plz)" you see everywhere.
It's different from this, as they are paying you isk, and receiving a plex. Neither side gets cash, that goes to CCP.

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Now, if SOMER let you directly convert credits into ISK, or offered special blinks that made the conversion a trivial matter, THEN I'd start having issues.
It is incredibly trivial to convert the credit. Just you have to remember that when you get the credit, you'll lose 20% converting it. But that would just be considered a transaction fee of sorts.


I often play Somerblink simply because I enjoy it.

When I occasionally I need to purchase GTC's I do so via Somerblink Referral scheme for the sole reason I can covert the isk I get via the referral to isk in game.

Sure I lose a little but its still isk I wouldn't wise have buying a GTC from any other method.

Now this can be classed as RMT but if CCP are cool with it so am I Big smile
Thomas Hurt
Future Ventures
#132 - 2013-10-03 13:54:59 UTC
Hahaha i love that some people cant understand this. EVE owns
Lady Areola Fappington
#133 - 2013-10-03 14:19:49 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Honestly to me, if feels no different than the "Use my referral to register an acct, I'll give you 200mil ISK (no PLEX registrations plz)" you see everywhere.
It's different from this, as they are paying you isk, and receiving a plex. Neither side gets cash, that goes to CCP.

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Now, if SOMER let you directly convert credits into ISK, or offered special blinks that made the conversion a trivial matter, THEN I'd start having issues.
It is incredibly trivial to convert the credit. Just you have to remember that when you get the credit, you'll lose 20% converting it. But that would just be considered a transaction fee of sorts.



Interesting, and much appreciated. Never been involved in Somer, or any real gambling, so I'm trying to get a clear picture before taking a stance.

Could you define how the trivial conversion works? In my mind, I see something like "Here, play this blink where every ticket gets a payout, the winner just gets more." I'd see that as an RMT conversion.

On the other side if it were "Here's some game credits, play them, you have a chance of losing all, what you win you can flip back to ISK", then not so much a problem.


To explain the first part of my quote,the Plex exchange goes "CCP gets cash. Player A gets PLEX, sold for ISK. Player B pays real cash, gets ISK in turn, "laundered" via Player A." To me, the only diff between that and Somer, is Somer gets a real life $ kickback from CCP. It still flows as "CCP gets cash, Player paying the cash gets ISK via a third party".

The other thing I'm concerned over, is SOMER legality, at least in some states in the USA. My state is really picky about gambling, and no amount of obfustication really protects you (A local VFW got busted for holding a "vegas" night....Players "donated" cash for monopoly money, gambled it, then used the winnings to bid on prizes). I'm unsure if in-EVE items would fall into the "items of value" category, but tickets to FanFest/EVE Vegas/Game Time sure do.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#134 - 2013-10-03 16:33:21 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Interesting, and much appreciated. Never been involved in Somer, or any real gambling, so I'm trying to get a clear picture before taking a stance.

Could you define how the trivial conversion works? In my mind, I see something like "Here, play this blink where every ticket gets a payout, the winner just gets more." I'd see that as an RMT conversion.

On the other side if it were "Here's some game credits, play them, you have a chance of losing all, what you win you can flip back to ISK", then not so much a problem.
You can buy all tickets in a blink. The payout of a blink is ~80% of the total amount of isk paid into a blink. This way you know yo uare definitely getting a payout.
Think of it like this. If I ran lotteries that cost 1m per ticket, I took 10 tickes and paid out 80m to the winner, but I gave you 10m of credit, you could buy all of the tickets, knowing you'll get 80m of actual money.

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
To explain the first part of my quote,the Plex exchange goes "CCP gets cash. Player A gets PLEX, sold for ISK. Player B pays real cash, gets ISK in turn, "laundered" via Player A." To me, the only diff between that and Somer, is Somer gets a real life $ kickback from CCP. It still flows as "CCP gets cash, Player paying the cash gets ISK via a third party".
Paying cash to CCP to get isk isn't an uncommon thing though. People buy a plex all the time. The problems arise when you are able to convert your isk to your cash. It means you can use the game as a business, making you money for your in game items. with the somer thing, they are able to use their isk to ensure people buy GTCs through them, essentially tagging their RMT transaction onto the transaction between the player and CCP. It's simple masking of RMT. You get the same in money laundering, where legitimate transactions have bonuses or cashbacks which gets paid across mixing illegal funds into legitimate transactions to mask their origin.

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
The other thing I'm concerned over, is SOMER legality, at least in some states in the USA. My state is really picky about gambling, and no amount of obfustication really protects you (A local VFW got busted for holding a "vegas" night....Players "donated" cash for monopoly money, gambled it, then used the winnings to bid on prizes). I'm unsure if in-EVE items would fall into the "items of value" category, but tickets to FanFest/EVE Vegas/Game Time sure do.
Chances are it is covered by laws in many places, but it's not set up as a company, so probably goes under the radar.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tradh
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2013-10-03 18:28:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tradh
I should then be able to make a site, that has a referal, if you buy a GTC through my site, you get 100m FUNNIEMONIES that you can spend on my sites lotteries that runs a constant 10x10m isk tickets with a payout of 80m.

You are allowed to buy out all 10 tickets obviously so you can if you will guarantee yourself 80m of those 100m if you dont feel like gambling, and out of every referal I get some real money for my 100m isk reward to the "customer" ?

How is this not RMT ?
Tiffany Kautsuo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-10-04 02:28:49 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Interesting, and much appreciated. Never been involved in Somer, or any real gambling, so I'm trying to get a clear picture before taking a stance.

Could you define how the trivial conversion works? In my mind, I see something like "Here, play this blink where every ticket gets a payout, the winner just gets more." I'd see that as an RMT conversion.

On the other side if it were "Here's some game credits, play them, you have a chance of losing all, what you win you can flip back to ISK", then not so much a problem.
You can buy all tickets in a blink. The payout of a blink is ~80% of the total amount of isk paid into a blink. This way you know yo uare definitely getting a payout.
Think of it like this. If I ran lotteries that cost 1m per ticket, I took 10 tickes and paid out 80m to the winner, but I gave you 10m of credit, you could buy all of the tickets, knowing you'll get 80m of actual money.


Because 1 * 10 *0.8 = 80 does it now?
Sabotaged
Veritas Vincit
#137 - 2013-10-04 08:12:20 UTC
You purchase a GTC and get ISK 'rewards' is RMT. Whether it's actual ISK or blink "Credit" it doesn't matter.

The difference between this and selling PLEX's for ISK by third parties is actual money is transfered to CCP. CCP wants total monopoly on RMT.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#138 - 2013-10-04 09:02:35 UTC
Sabotaged wrote:
You purchase a GTC and get ISK 'rewards' is RMT. Whether it's actual ISK or blink "Credit" it doesn't matter.

The difference between this and selling PLEX's for ISK by third parties is actual money is transfered to CCP. CCP wants total monopoly on RMT.


It's slightly more subtle than that. When you buy a GTC from CCP, what you get is game time. An MMO company selling game time is in and of itself pretty uncontentious, and that's all that CCP themselves actually do.

CCP do allow you to swap your game time for ISK with another player, but that's qualitatively different from allowing you to just buy ISK with money.

I am quite aware that from the perspective of the dude who works a 60 hour week and just wants to blow $20 on a PLEX to make sure he has ISK for a weekend's PvP that it works out pretty much the same. But from the perspective of everyone else in the game, the PLEX system is infinitely superior to "traditional" RMT with respect to the effects on our game.

To use a loose analogy, a crack-house and a pharmacy are both places where people go to buy drugs. Which would you rather have on your street?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#139 - 2013-10-04 11:12:45 UTC
Tiffany Kautsuo wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Interesting, and much appreciated. Never been involved in Somer, or any real gambling, so I'm trying to get a clear picture before taking a stance.

Could you define how the trivial conversion works? In my mind, I see something like "Here, play this blink where every ticket gets a payout, the winner just gets more." I'd see that as an RMT conversion.

On the other side if it were "Here's some game credits, play them, you have a chance of losing all, what you win you can flip back to ISK", then not so much a problem.
You can buy all tickets in a blink. The payout of a blink is ~80% of the total amount of isk paid into a blink. This way you know yo uare definitely getting a payout.
Think of it like this. If I ran lotteries that cost 1m per ticket, I took 10 tickes and paid out 80m to the winner, but I gave you 10m of credit, you could buy all of the tickets, knowing you'll get 80m of actual money.


Because 1 * 10 *0.8 = 80 does it now?


lol, shh I was in a hurry :D
It meant to say 10m per tick and 100m credit :D

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#140 - 2013-10-04 11:16:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Sabotaged wrote:
You purchase a GTC and get ISK 'rewards' is RMT. Whether it's actual ISK or blink "Credit" it doesn't matter.

The difference between this and selling PLEX's for ISK by third parties is actual money is transfered to CCP. CCP wants total monopoly on RMT.


It's slightly more subtle than that. When you buy a GTC from CCP, what you get is game time. An MMO company selling game time is in and of itself pretty uncontentious, and that's all that CCP themselves actually do.

CCP do allow you to swap your game time for ISK with another player, but that's qualitatively different from allowing you to just buy ISK with money.

I am quite aware that from the perspective of the dude who works a 60 hour week and just wants to blow $20 on a PLEX to make sure he has ISK for a weekend's PvP that it works out pretty much the same. But from the perspective of everyone else in the game, the PLEX system is infinitely superior to "traditional" RMT with respect to the effects on our game.

To use a loose analogy, a crack-house and a pharmacy are both places where people go to buy drugs. Which would you rather have on your street?

I feel you miss the point though. I'm not worried about the fact that people can buy a plex from CCP and exchange it for isk. Somer can hand their isk across in order to generate revenue though. That's what I'm worried about.
They turn isk into cash, surely that means everyone can do that if CCP get a cut? If we can't all do it, why do Somer have an exemption from this rule.
For that matter why are Somer allowed to run their accounts as a business at all since it's against the EULA?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.