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New Dev Blog: CSM Special Summit -- Meeting minutes are out

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CCP Fallout
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2011-09-09 14:24:30 UTC
CCP Xhagen's newest blog contains the meeting minutes from the Special Summit the CSM had with CCP earlier this summer. You may read the blog, and the minutes, here.

CCP Fallout Associate Community Manager EVE Online @ccp_fallout
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#2 - 2011-09-09 14:27:06 UTC
Frist

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#3 - 2011-09-09 14:28:15 UTC
For the PEOPLE, etc...! Pirate

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-09-09 14:29:12 UTC
Glad this is out of the way. On to the next crisis!

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Efraya
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#5 - 2011-09-09 14:30:36 UTC
Bah, damn speedy csm

Beat chribba though \0/

[b][center]WSpace; Dead space.[/center] [center]Lady Spank for forum mod[/center][/b]
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon
#6 - 2011-09-09 14:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: T'amber Anomandari Demaleon
Quote:
The CSM pointed out that the source of much of the dissatisfaction was that people were afraid it
would become mandatory to spend real life money on things like ships and ammo to remain
competitive. The CSM emphatically reiterated their stance that EVE players should not have to spend
real life money to have an advantage over other players, since anything of that nature would render the
EVE sandbox pointless. CCP clearly stated again that there are not, nor have there ever been, any plans
of this nature.

CCP mentioned what an amazing feeling it is to see such passion for EVE from the community. Even
though the source of the display was unfortunate, the level of emotion and dedication involved was
both touching and humbling.

The CSM further stated it was necessary that any and all further development of virtual goods strategy
needs to be done in cooperation with the CSM and the players. This cooperation is necessary as, due to
the complexity of EVE, there are many gray areas where services can be – and/or are already being –
offered that need community input.

CCP clearly stated that the investment of money in EVE should not give a player an unfair advantage
over the investment of time.


quoting for prosperity.

www.shipsofeve.com
Charles37
Bookmark Both Sides
#7 - 2011-09-09 14:31:54 UTC
Is there any comment by the CSM about how they feel about these minutes? Just a few days ago, The Mittani and several other people were making quite a big fuss about CCP apparently trying to dramatically change the tone of the discussion through the editing process on the minutes. Has this been resolved to the satisfaction of all involved parties?

Link: http://www.evenews24.com/2011/09/05/must-read-minutes-of-the-scandal-of-the-minutes/

Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#8 - 2011-09-09 14:33:03 UTC
Now lets all dismiss the coincidence of this being released so soon after the CSM's media offensive, right?
Bel Amar
Rules of Acquisition
#9 - 2011-09-09 14:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bel Amar
Those minutes didn't really seem to say anything we didn't already know, and no new specifics seem to have been clarified further... Given the rather banal nature, I'm left even more confused as to why it took so long and caused so much back and forth between the CSM & CCP...
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#10 - 2011-09-09 14:36:36 UTC
Charles37 wrote:
Is there any comment by the CSM about how they feel about these minutes?


This was my post last week on the issue:

CSM Emergency Summit - The Aftermath

Since then, things have been resolved and the CSM as a whole is satisfied and glad they are finally published.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-09-09 14:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Quote:
The CSM pointed out that the source of much of the dissatisfaction was that people were afraid it would become mandatory to spend real life money on things like ships and ammo to remain competitive.

The CSM emphatically reiterated their stance that EVE players should not have to spend real life money to have an advantage over other players, since anything of that nature would render the EVE sandbox pointless.

The very design of AUR does already mitigate these concerns...

In practice it will always be possible to buy NeX items with ISK on the secondary market or use ISK to purchase PLEX for conversion into AUR.

I can of course not speak for the entirety of protesters but I doubt very much that it was the fear of Jita running out of PLEXes that riled them up. Straight

If the CSM did really voice these concerns as presented in the minutes I cannot help but think that it did a poor job at representing the players' concerns.

CCP's view of the central issue being the balance between investment of RL money vs investment of time seems to be much closer to the mark (as CCP's whole MT strategy seems to be centered around a system which ensures that - from the individual player's POV - there never will be RL Money-exclusive items).
Rees Noturana
Red Rock Mining Company
#12 - 2011-09-09 14:42:52 UTC
What is new in this document that we haven't read before? I could have sworn I already read this in previous posts.

_ _
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#13 - 2011-09-09 14:45:27 UTC
Reading through it now. Wow.

If THIS is what ended up being the version acceptable to the CSM, I can't even begin to imagine how biased CCP's initial versions were.

The whole thing reads like a CCP press release, with a few defensive bits here and there.

This is not how minutes are generally recorded. Not by a huge stretch.
Andrea Griffin
#14 - 2011-09-09 14:49:45 UTC
IBC.

Also, big thanks to the CSM for fighting for the Eve we love. Having to fly out to Iceland on a moment's notice is, at the very least, extremely inconvenient I'm sure.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Bel Amar
Rules of Acquisition
#15 - 2011-09-09 14:50:26 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
If the CSM did really voice these concerns as represented in the minutes I cannot help but think that it did a poor job at representing the players' concerns.


They appeared to represent my concerns fairly well. A secondary isk market is ultimately irrelevant if the primary market involves performance boosting items that must initially be purchased with cash.
White Tree
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-09-09 14:52:16 UTC
Bel Amar wrote:
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
If the CSM did really voice these concerns as represented in the minutes I cannot help but think that it did a poor job at representing the players' concerns.


They appeared to represent my concerns fairly well. A secondary isk market is ultimately irrelevant if the primary market involves performance boosting items that must initially be purchased with cash.


Keep in mind a lot of people just hate on us because it's cool and trendy and they're basically never able to be satisfied with anything we ever do. I learned this pretty quickly.

Former member of CSM6.
Darius III
Interstellar eXodus
The Initiative.
#17 - 2011-09-09 14:53:20 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
[quote]The CSM pointed out that the source of much of the dissatisfaction was that people were afraid it would become mandatory to spend real life money on things like ships and ammo to remain competitive.


If the CSM did really voice these concerns as presented in the minutes I cannot help but think that it did a poor job at representing the players' concerns.


Qft

Hmmm
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2011-09-09 15:01:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Bel Amar wrote:
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
If the CSM did really voice these concerns as represented in the minutes I cannot help but think that it did a poor job at representing the players' concerns.


They appeared to represent my concerns fairly well. A secondary isk market is ultimately irrelevant if the primary market involves performance boosting items that must initially be purchased with cash.

CCP can truly agree 100% with the concerns voiced by the CSM and still introduce game-affecting "overpowered" NeX items with a clear conscience (with the reasoning laid out by me above).

The player providing the RL money for a performance boost would often not even know what was just bought with his money as all he did was sell a PLEX for ISK.

The CSM would have had to state the problem in a general equilibrium framing (to borrow some terms from economics) to counter CCP's partial equilibrium "but any individual player can buy all the NeX items for ISK".

Doing so concisely is hard due to the multiple uses for PLEX blurring the picture and it is all too easy to slip into completely ineffectual "we just don't want you to sell more PLEX/earn more money"-style of argument.

But the actual sentences credited to the CSM in these minutes don't expound on this issue (of perspectives & equilibrium) and instead give CCP an easy way out.

The whole ISK - PLEX - AUR tie-in is a rather devious (brilliant!) scheme that counters most blunt criticism of "power" MTs by construction.
Of course the angry forum posters mostly went along a "this just wouldn't feel right" path and did not try to articulate a waterproof criticism but when talking to CCP the CSM should have tried to dissect the issue with some intellectual clarity (and not with arguments that can be brushed off easily).
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#19 - 2011-09-09 15:12:00 UTC
Man, I am slow today...

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Ceq Lysander
#20 - 2011-09-09 15:12:38 UTC
Inb4Chribba.

Glad to finally see the minutes. Shame it too so long and so much censoring/editing.

Keep up the good work CSM!

This is my signature. There are many like it but this one is mine!
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