Intergalactic Summit

Either. I'm not aware of any official talks either before or after. What discussions were happening before? You're apparently privy to more information than I am because I know of no such talks taking place. Please enlighten all of us as to who took part in these discussions, where they were held and what was on the agenda.

To my knowledge the only "offer" ever placed on the table by the Amarr has been, "submit to us or die". There's never been any face to face meeting where proposals and counter proposals have been made and discussed. There's been nothing at all beyond Jamyl's unilateral decision to dump millions of Amarr-indoctrinated potential spies onto us which doean't qualify. Had your empress been sincere about releasing the ninth generation she'd have asked for consultations with the Republic and together we would have worked out a mutually agreeable timetable for a gradual release of those individuals so as not to cause undue burden on either side. As it happened Jamyl basically said, "Ok, you're free. Here's an Interbus ticket to Matari space. Good luck in your new life" and abandoned the unfortunate souls to fend for themselves (in reality for the Republic to care for them).

I would like to take a moment to apologize for my arrogant sounding remarks.
Yes, I concede that the Sansha could have quite possibly had dealings with the Empire, it would make logical sense for him to do so since we're the only people in the cluster who would buy slave technology. Yet to my understanding he didn't just have dealings with us. So yes, I admit
As for the question of the Bloody Hands, I can think of at least one well known splinter group, the Bleeding Hearts of Matar, and there are others that I can think of. With regard to their potential funding by segments within the Republic's government, I do not generally make a habit of blurting military intelligence out into the public domain for the sake of trying to win an argument over the Gal Net. Mr Soter may wish to take notes at this point.

As for whether there has been dialog between Imperial and Republic governments...do you honestly think I'm in a position to answer that question? I was a Major in the Navy when I left, that was three years ago now. I wouldn't have been told then and I certainly wouldn't have been told now. My connections are good but they are not that good. It would not surprise me however of there was a certain level of dialog going between the two parties on a top secret level, since both the Empress and Shakor have to appease the fairly hawkish factions within their nations. Ultimately, we are Capsuleers, independent agents whose loyalties are transient at the best of times. The Empires certainly aren't going to share their innermost workings and top secret machinations with us, no matter how much we might ask them to.

Incidentally, if you do not wish to take my word for it, you are more than welcome to come visit my holdings to inspect my dwellings. You will find no slaves I promise you.

Ms. Rella,

As far as news articles for these discussions, they are quite difficult to find. I suppose The Scope finds peaceful negotiations less thrilling to cover than death and other non-peaceful subjects. There is also a limit to the news articles available on the public neo-com as they only go back to YC 105 (I've only found one from 104 and it's linked below). However, I will provide you some evidence of negotiations before I say anymore.

-Let's begin with the Yoiul Conference where the beginnings of negotiations for peace took place. This conference, or meeting, brought together all five major nations to establish guidelines for inter-stellar peace and co-operation.

-From the Yoiul Conference came CONCORD, which is an entity that brings the five empires together for negotiations and other discussions regarding trade and laws. Directly from the portal it states, "The inner workings of CONCORD are democratic in nature, today each of the five empires have an equal saying in all matters."

-Following this, the Amarr Empire was ruled by Heideran VII sometime later who even won the Aidonis award for his peaceful mission and negotiations among all the empires.

-After Heideran's death, he was succeeded by Doriam II, who "was known to talk and negotiate with many of the Empire's traditional enemies. "

Barring these examples, how else do you think peace would have came to be for over a hundred years before the Elder War? Do you truly think the only offer Amarr has given to others is "submit or die," or are you being sardonic? One of the main reasons CONCORD exists is for the purpose of the discussions you claim to have no knowledge of. The Inner Circle members may no longer be elected by the empires, but there is still representation of the four empires with their respective ambassadors, like Keitan Yun.

In regards to the emancipation of the 9th generation of slaves, or "Amarr-indoctrinated potential spies," was she not giving you what the freedom fighters have been asking for all this time though on a much smaller scale? If anything she proved how foolish the request for immediate release of all slaves is. The Republic could hardly handle one generation of freed slaves, so certainly all of them freed at once would be catasrophic. You say she should have worked out "a time-table for the gradual release" of slaves so they wouldn't burden you. I hope I'm not the only person who finds this request ironic. Wasn't this what Midular was trying to do before the Elder War started? People considered her work appeasement and unacceptable for the Minmatar in bondage.

Some food for thought.

-Eran

I think I have discovered the flaw here.

Snarking aside, we all have our crazed fringe elements, but historically yours has been pretty damned vocal.



You know, I do agree there - the Yulai incident and all that followed would not have happened if there wasn't so much unfinished business between the Empire and Republic. The manner of the way you dealt with it, however, burned that excuse up. We're even. No more victim complex justifications for the next time.

No, but duping the cluster into believing it is constitutes the only Imperial diplomatic strategy that allows them to believably continue playing the victims even while making plans to enslave millions of Minmatar.

Ms. Rella,

I didn't realize 115 years was ancient history. I personally wouldn't consider it to be.



So you're suggesting that because you haven't explicitly read about it recently, it hasn't happened. I politely disagree. Heideran and Doriam both negotiated with the Republic-Doriam even tried to release some slaves to the Republic, albeit they were massacred by fanatics. What you want is some article from The Scope that says "Mr. Black of the Amarr Empire met with Mr. White from The Republic to discuss what the legality of Quafe is," or something to that affect, correct? I've given indirect proof thinking it would be enough to convince you but clearly it's not. It makes me wonder what you think of history that you personally haven't witnessed...



The Amarr never waver from their religious beliefs, like the Gallente never waver from their political beliefs, like the Caldari never waver from their economic beliefs, like the Minmatar never waver from their emotional beliefs. This is something of a generalization, but it seems strange to me you expect the Amarr to change their beliefs because you don't like the way they think. Regarding the "join or be killed" ideology, I personally don't see it. They have indeed tried in the past, most recently with the Minmatar, to kill or subject other races, however, they never fought with the Caldari or Gallente physically over their ideology. Any 'reclaiming' going on between those two empires has been strictly limited to religious teachings and non-violent actions.

The recent "Reclaiming" isn't like the past one. Although you mention some Heirs asking for a similar one to the past, the current one seems to be more focused on education like what Yonis Ardishapur is doing in the Mandate.



I suppose you expected Jamyl Sarum to contact Maleatu Shakor after he invaded with a courtesy call to say, "Hey buddy, you just tried to destroy our Empire but it's cool, bro. I just wanted to negotiate giving you some slaves that you guys forgot to take with you. Just tryin' to help out! Your Pen Pal -Jammy"

No. Of course it was a political ploy. She basically shoved what Shakor did in his face and showed him he's going about things the wrong way. Certainly after Shakor declares war on the Empire, the Empire would not negotiate with him. You have some strange expectations. It's going to take some time before any real negotiations can take place again after what happened in YC 105.



I can't be bothered to go searching for it but I have seen quite a few demand immediate emancipation. I would agree with you these people are not in the right state of mind though. Glad we agree on one thing. Though if what you wanted was a dialogue then the war needs to settle down. Invading the people you want to talk with isn't the best way to start a dialogue amongst cultures outside the Republic. Hindsight is 20-20, but I wish people had more patience with Karin Midular, because she is the only one in Matari politics who seemed to sincerely want a dialogue.



Firstly I wish to point out I'm not the one who coined the phrase "Elder War," but call it whatever you want. What do you prefer to call it, anyways? Next, why do people say apologist like it's a bad thing? Yes, these discussions involve controversy but that doesn't mean the points I make are irrational. Seems we agree on a second thing though, as I also think this wouldn't have happened if the Amarr never enslaved people to begin with. However that is not the universe we live in, so continuing to say, "Well you started it!" isn't making anything better.

In regards to my loyalties, I'm not sure you know me that well. However if you want to effect change within, you should've become a politician then, not a capsuleer.

Regards,
-Eran

(( OMG THIS FORUM ))

Having now eaten my attempt to reply TWICE, I think its time for a break from this forum.

Sometimes, many would argue the majority of times, human beings cannot be trusted to make their own decisions when the sum well-being of the species is accounted for. I have bloodied my hands with Gallente, Minmatar, Amarr and yes, even Caldari blood in a futile war that may stretch on into infinity. I thought I was making the cluster a safer place, for my people, for all people. I was misguided, I could not be trusted to balance the equation.

Now don't take this as some self-superior recruitment screed. I am as filthy with blood and guilt as any of you. I am no orator, such is not my function. But I know war and how it eats away at the human soul. Remember that before now, even the most evil of people died, eaten away by their passions and perversions or by time itself. You have a breed of infantry and naval commanders who this war will hollow out and spit back into society, or out to the fringes to start their own hollow little empires. They will not die, mischance notwithstanding. What will you do when your greatest and most powerful figures are all militant despots of the worst kind, inflicted on your lives for all eternity?

Your proxy war is feeding capsuleers who have little love for any of your home-nations. Think about this fact you have in common, and remedy the situation before it is too late.

There are other alternatives, but you should talk to more enlightened members of the Foundations than I, if these alternative opportunities interest you.

I think the definition of 'reclaim' might beg to differ. It's not called "claiming" for a reason, rather "reclaiming"



Considering that some of the Mandate defected during the initial invasion, one could argue that the Reclaiming is going on in the Mandate as much as anywhere else. However, I will admit that the Mandate wasn't the best example. Your points about Ardishapur's possible ulterior motives are very possible and likely, though.

-Eran

Consider it for others then. I wasn't meaning to insult your intelligence but rather use it as a reference. I doubt all the Ammatar who were going to defect actually left the Mandate though, and if they decided to stay behind to further their goals from the inside then that would be a problem for Ardishapur. I am limited on time at the moment so we'll discuss it more later if you wish.

-Eran