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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#501 - 2013-10-03 13:22:11 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Freako X wrote:
A lot of people keep saying the cruiser is OP. Compared to ....?


The current cruiser build will do more dps than any other covert ship if fitted correctly.



The problem is not doing more dps.. its doing a LOT more DPS..

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#502 - 2013-10-03 13:25:45 UTC
What?.. Why on earth kill the sole reason for it's existence! Unable to do relic and data sites anywhere else but hisec?
Logistics, a cloaky logistics to support big fleets! How is this exploration. Sorry if you want a different ship please do not try to cripple this one to make it into your dream ship for incursions.

CCP PLEASE keep this an explorer and not let them talk you into making this something else entirely.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#503 - 2013-10-03 13:27:33 UTC
what of the caldari/minmatar mix? you guys want to look at it in the future?

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#504 - 2013-10-03 13:28:25 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


What we're shooting for is ships that are themed around exploration and therefor make good platforms for a range of activities including probing, hacking, exploration combat sites, anoms, killing anom runners, spying on people, looking super sexy and generally being kind of awesome.



If the frigate should be able to probe, salvage and cloak without refitting, it needs 3 high slots.

Also, that cruiser is overpowered. Should only have a bandwidth of 75, 100 tops.


100 mb of bandwith would be a good compromise, but the drone bay would need to remain large to maintain the role of extended deployments, 400 m3 with 100 bandwith would work.

Losing 1 Ogre, with a 2 DDA setup, is 140 DPS reduction. With a 1 DDA setup it is a 120 DPS decrease.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#505 - 2013-10-03 13:30:23 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What?.. Why on earth kill the sole reason for it's existence! Unable to do relic and data sites anywhere else but hisec?
Logistics, a cloaky logistics to support big fleets! How is this exploration. Sorry if you want a different ship please do not try to cripple this one to make it into your dream ship for incursions.

CCP PLEASE keep this an explorer and not let them talk you into making this something else entirely.



The problem is that it will be used 10 times more for solo PVP as an overpowered solo PVP ship if kept this way.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#506 - 2013-10-03 13:31:01 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
what of the caldari/minmatar mix? you guys want to look at it in the future?



Not much in the lore left to create such faction.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#507 - 2013-10-03 13:36:02 UTC
You're not going to arbitrarily decide that since the cruiser is a drone boat with drone damage bonuses that it needs to lose a fitting slot sometime in the balancing future are you?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#508 - 2013-10-03 13:36:31 UTC
Koban Agalder wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Freako X wrote:
A lot of people keep saying the cruiser is OP. Compared to ....?


The current cruiser build will do more dps than any other covert ship if fitted correctly.

Keep in mind that no old cloaky ship got it's rebalance pass.


Even if they do get their rebalance passes, I doubt we'll see something of this magnitude.

Let's look at the recons, shall we? Their primary role is to support damage dealing ships - a job they perform in an excellent way. I'd argue those things don't even need a rebalance pass - they're comparatively weak as solo combat vessels but act as excellent force multipliers.

A Rapier is able to web the target, making applying torpedo/battleship gun damage easier. An Arazu can lock down MWDs over longer range and keep the target tackled for extended period of time. Falcon locks down targets and acts as an external "tank" of its covert fleet.

The only odd one is the Pilgrim, which has some merit as a solo ratter-killer (...not much, admittely, since the rat AI changes make its TD bonuses actually do more harm than good.) and on special occasions - bridgeable neuting ship (killing cap-reliant PvE boats that just refuse to die.)

The most they should really see, (bar the pilgrim which could use a good look at the bonuses it has) is looking at fititng options - but ever since Covert Cloak requirements have been changed it's not that much of an issue anymore.

The thought behind this cruiser was to have a combat-capable covert ship that stands between the cvert utility of its Recon T2 brethren and raw combat abilities of pirate cruisers, such as the Cynabal or Vigilant. As it stands, its slot layout - coupled with the ability to fly cloaked, makes it flat out just as good of a choice in combat.

Covert Ops cloak is a weapon on its own for those who know how to use it. It's not just for those who choose to run away and hide - it allows the attacker to pick a fight as he wishes, on his terms.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#509 - 2013-10-03 13:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What?.. Why on earth kill the sole reason for it's existence! Unable to do relic and data sites anywhere else but hisec?
Logistics, a cloaky logistics to support big fleets! How is this exploration. Sorry if you want a different ship please do not try to cripple this one to make it into your dream ship for incursions.

CCP PLEASE keep this an explorer and not let them talk you into making this something else entirely.



The problem is that it will be used 10 times more for solo PVP as an overpowered solo PVP ship if kept this way.



Why

Navy vexor with advanced cloak vs stratos navy vexor massively bonused drones vs not so much

Well under 100m vs hell of a lot more

Who the hell is going to use ogres or sentrys under 20km against soft targets like frigs.

So much better cheaper ships to pew pew at close range.

If concerned only nerf is less than 5 turret slots but you would be insane to use it as a blaster boat or very very wasteful.



If you want a jump in and massacre ship any battleship with a MJD would do that.

There are advantages with a covert ops cloak but you still have to lock weapons and if you have given up your health to gank fit you are likely dead before you can.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#510 - 2013-10-03 13:40:15 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What?.. Why on earth kill the sole reason for it's existence! Unable to do relic and data sites anywhere else but hisec?
Logistics, a cloaky logistics to support big fleets! How is this exploration. Sorry if you want a different ship please do not try to cripple this one to make it into your dream ship for incursions.

CCP PLEASE keep this an explorer and not let them talk you into making this something else entirely.



The problem is that it will be used 10 times more for solo PVP as an overpowered solo PVP ship if kept this way.

That will be said under all circumstances in which it can do any meaningful DPS and be able to use a covert ops cloak.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#511 - 2013-10-03 13:50:19 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What?.. Why on earth kill the sole reason for it's existence! Unable to do relic and data sites anywhere else but hisec?
Logistics, a cloaky logistics to support big fleets! How is this exploration. Sorry if you want a different ship please do not try to cripple this one to make it into your dream ship for incursions.

CCP PLEASE keep this an explorer and not let them talk you into making this something else entirely.



The problem is that it will be used 10 times more for solo PVP as an overpowered solo PVP ship if kept this way.

That will be said under all circumstances in which it can do any meaningful DPS and be able to use a covert ops cloak.



And that is enough reason to not do it!

Exploration doe snot even need a covert ops cloak. So this ship is disguised as an exploration ship, but anyoen can see its real intent is being a solo pvp ship.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#512 - 2013-10-03 13:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What?.. Why on earth kill the sole reason for it's existence! Unable to do relic and data sites anywhere else but hisec?
Logistics, a cloaky logistics to support big fleets! How is this exploration. Sorry if you want a different ship please do not try to cripple this one to make it into your dream ship for incursions.

CCP PLEASE keep this an explorer and not let them talk you into making this something else entirely.



The problem is that it will be used 10 times more for solo PVP as an overpowered solo PVP ship if kept this way.

That will be said under all circumstances in which it can do any meaningful DPS and be able to use a covert ops cloak.



And that is enough reason to not do it!

Exploration doe snot even need a covert ops cloak. So this ship is disguised as an exploration ship, but anyoen can see its real intent is being a solo pvp ship.



Please tell me how a covert ops cloak is not required in null, wormhole space and travelling in dangerous space in an exploration ship, or are you thinking of exploration as something that only happens within 2 jumps of Jita?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#513 - 2013-10-03 13:54:34 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What?.. Why on earth kill the sole reason for it's existence! Unable to do relic and data sites anywhere else but hisec?
Logistics, a cloaky logistics to support big fleets! How is this exploration. Sorry if you want a different ship please do not try to cripple this one to make it into your dream ship for incursions.

CCP PLEASE keep this an explorer and not let them talk you into making this something else entirely.



The problem is that it will be used 10 times more for solo PVP as an overpowered solo PVP ship if kept this way.

That will be said under all circumstances in which it can do any meaningful DPS and be able to use a covert ops cloak.


That is understandable - covert Lokis, Proteuses, even Tengus already exist (Legions being used very rarely, sadly). A choice between one of them and say, a Cynabal isn't an obvious one though - ability to cloak, even dodge bubbles is balanced out by significant loss in damage, tank, speed. In the end you must pick a right tool for the job.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think CCP should look at covert T3 configurations for the "ballpark" of what that ship should be able to do damage-wise. Perhaps a bit more since it won't be dodging bubbles but it's just way too good as it is now.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#514 - 2013-10-03 14:01:34 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
What?.. Why on earth kill the sole reason for it's existence! Unable to do relic and data sites anywhere else but hisec?
Logistics, a cloaky logistics to support big fleets! How is this exploration. Sorry if you want a different ship please do not try to cripple this one to make it into your dream ship for incursions.

CCP PLEASE keep this an explorer and not let them talk you into making this something else entirely.



The problem is that it will be used 10 times more for solo PVP as an overpowered solo PVP ship if kept this way.



Why BECAUSE IT WILL BE THE DEFAULT GANK SHIP FOR ALL COV OP WORK

Navy vexor with advanced cloak vs stratos navy vexor massively bonused drones vs not so much ADVANCED CLOAK HAS ABOUT 5% OF THE UTILITY OF COV OPS CLOAK, BEING GENEROUS TO IT.

Well under 100m vs hell of a lot more ACTUALLY ONCE THINGS CALM DOWN THEY WILL COST THE SAME MORE OR LESS. HOWEVER YOU SHOULD LEAVE PRICE OUT WHEN DISCUSSING PVP BALANCE. THANK YOU.

Who the hell is going to use ogres or sentrys under 20km against soft targets like frigs. IT WILL NOT BE USED AGAINST FRIGS BUT AGAINST JUICY STUFF. IF IT NEEDS TO POP THE OCCASIONAL FRIG IT WILL POP OUT WARRIORS OR HOBOS. WHAT IS IT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND?

So much better cheaper ships to pew pew at close range. UMM ACTUALLY NO. EVEN IF YOU MEAN AGAINST FRIGS ONLY (FOR SOME WEIRD REASON YOU ALONE UNDERSTAND) STILL NO. 5 LIGHT DRONES + HULL BONUS + ALMOST DEFAULT DDAs = THE BEST COV OP SHIP FOR CLOSE RANGE FRIG KILLING ALSO. DONT SWEAT IT MUCH ... IT WILL BE THE BEST COV OP SHIP FOR TANK AND GANK IN ALL IMAGINABLE SITUATIONS. IT WILL EVEN GOBBLE SOME TURF FROM BLACK OPS.

If concerned only nerf is less than 5 turret slots but you would be insane to use it as a blaster boat or very very wasteful.
HMMM YES BLASTERS WOULD BE WRONG ON THIS SHIP FOR PVP (UNLESS IF USED FOR SOLO WORK) FOR MOST USES M PULSES WITH SCORCH AND M RAILS WITH CN ANTIMATTER WILL BE THE FIRST CHOICE. STILL OP WITH THOSE.


If you want a jump in and massacre ship any battleship with a MJD would do that. UMMM I WONT EVEN COMMENT HERE.


There are advantages with a covert ops cloak but you still have to lock weapons and if you have given up your health to gank fit you are likely dead before you can. YOU WONT GIVE UP YOUR HEALTH. IT WILL EASILY REACH 100K EHP WITH SLAVES EVEN WITH A COUPLE OF DDAIIs WHICH MAKES IT HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT IT WILL POP BEFORE LOCKING WEAPONS.



My replies inserted in bloack capitals for ease of reference.
Gabriel Locke
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#515 - 2013-10-03 14:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Locke
The stated purpose was for exploration and long deployments, right?

For running data/relic sites a cheap covert ops frig will be better than both of these ships and at much lower cost, making their +5 virus coherence basically irrelevant, as nobody will use them for that.

For running combat sites the Asteros will be pretty useless except for maybe some low level sites. Why would anyone run low level sites when they can run tougher ones in the Stratios for more isk/hour?

If the Stratios does 2-3 times more damage than other covert ships it'll be a PvP boat 9 times out of ten...
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#516 - 2013-10-03 14:04:53 UTC
Big smile
I am coming to the interesting conclusion, that those who think this ship is overpowered, are those who are EFT warriors and those who hate the idea that those nice soft targets, that were such a source of tears and good loot are now a really really bad idea to prey on.

They wouldn't jump a t3 and wouldn't jump on this.



And they are not sure if when jumping into a relic site if they are going to have a juicy soft helios uncloak or...... A stratios.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#517 - 2013-10-03 14:05:13 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think CCP should look at covert T3 configurations for the "ballpark" of what that ship should be able to do damage-wise. Perhaps a bit more since it won't be dodging bubbles but it's just way too good as it is now.



QFT, the aim should be around 550 dps with 2 damage mods (liek 10-20% more than a comparable Proteus - and this will be a lot cheaper than said Proteus) and I am saying this with a tear in my because if the current iteration survives I fully intend to abuse the crap out of it...
NinjaStyle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#518 - 2013-10-03 14:05:34 UTC  |  Edited by: NinjaStyle
CCP Rise wrote:
Was considering optimal bonus instead of cap use. Maybe can continue to consider that. We didn't want to do damage bonus in the role bonus because then you would have like 900 dps covert cloaking cruiser which is way too much. Optimal might work though.


25% less cap usage and 25% Optimal range? having no cap to fire weapons sucks with Energy turrets and range is important for medium size stuff.
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#519 - 2013-10-03 14:07:26 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Big smile
I am coming to the interesting conclusion, that those who think this ship is overpowered, are those who are EFT warriors and those who hate the idea that those nice soft targets, that were such a source of tears and good loot are now a really really bad idea to prey on.

They wouldn't jump a t3 and wouldn't jump on this.



And they are not sure if when jumping into a relic site if they are going to have a juicy soft helios uncloak or...... A stratios.



You are not in touch with reality. We would be all over a t3 like bitches in heat and we will do the same to these if they are ever used for pve. Its the pvp uses in our hands, not yours that I am worried about. If you knew whats good for you, you would be A LOT more worried than I am.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#520 - 2013-10-03 14:08:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The problem is that it will be used 10 times more for solo PVP as an overpowered solo PVP ship if kept this way.

And what power should it have ? It's already plain weaker than any HAC or pirate cruiser (except maybe the Phantasm). All combat navy cruiser will make very tough fight, and all attack cruiser, navy or not, are way faster that the Stratios. In fact, the ship is barely better than T1 cruisers : a Maller have the same armor bonus and almost as many armor ; and Ogre theoretical dps is clearly not actual dps on anything moving. So what will you gank with that ?

Not to mention that all fit show the dps with ogres, which won't apply without hard tackle (scram+web) which mean you will commit a 300Misk ship to gank a T1 cruiser or a pve ship.