These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

[Post-Rubicon] T3 Rebalance Discussion
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#21 - 2013-10-03 06:59:19 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
So you say you have little to no experience with the Proteus, yet you call it OP.

Yes the Proteus can be fit with a huge buffer tank. Guess what you won't be doing with that fit. Yea damage. For one, your DPS will suffer. Then add to that, you can't shoot far past your nose. Then for the icing, you are a slow brick that will be lucky to catch anything and stay in range.

There is a reason many gallente blasterboats get fit for shield tanking. Armor tanking makes them too slow to apply their short range damage.

Sure you can configure it for high DPS. It is still a bit of a brick, so you can easily find your self getting kited to death. Also keep in mind a proteus gets to apply that damage primarily to the highest natural resist of many ships (kinetic/thermal).

So yea it's easy to run the numbers in EFT and conclude the proteus is OP. Go fly one first and then we will talk.

Also keep in mind, with the SP loss, and lack of ejecting, a proteus pilot has to pretty much go all in when fighting, since you are in brawling range.

So you're saying it's not OP? Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Setsune Rin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-10-03 07:39:32 UTC
honestly, t3's in their current form are fine

there are a few subsystems that need some love (tengu blasters, some covert subs and defensive subs)
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-10-03 08:36:16 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
So you say you have little to no experience with the Proteus, yet you call it OP.

Yes the Proteus can be fit with a huge buffer tank. Guess what you won't be doing with that fit. Yea damage. For one, your DPS will suffer. Then add to that, you can't shoot far past your nose. Then for the icing, you are a slow brick that will be lucky to catch anything and stay in range.

There is a reason many gallente blasterboats get fit for shield tanking. Armor tanking makes them too slow to apply their short range damage.

Sure you can configure it for high DPS. It is still a bit of a brick, so you can easily find your self getting kited to death. Also keep in mind a proteus gets to apply that damage primarily to the highest natural resist of many ships (kinetic/thermal).

So yea it's easy to run the numbers in EFT and conclude the proteus is OP. Go fly one first and then we will talk.

Also keep in mind, with the SP loss, and lack of ejecting, a proteus pilot has to pretty much go all in when fighting, since you are in brawling range.

So you're saying it's not OP? Lol


Not OP at all.

Post the fits of your OP proteus with stats, and I'll tell you why.
Koalabog1
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-10-03 08:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Koalabog1
I only really have any experiance with the Tengu and the only thing i see wrong is the "Accelerated ejection bay" having the 5% kinetic damage bonus, it pretty much results in a battleships worth of DPS when HAM fit


EDIT:
and some subsystems being fairly useless
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#25 - 2013-10-03 08:52:57 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
So you say you have little to no experience with the Proteus, yet you call it OP.

Yes the Proteus can be fit with a huge buffer tank. Guess what you won't be doing with that fit. Yea damage. For one, your DPS will suffer. Then add to that, you can't shoot far past your nose. Then for the icing, you are a slow brick that will be lucky to catch anything and stay in range.

There is a reason many gallente blasterboats get fit for shield tanking. Armor tanking makes them too slow to apply their short range damage.

Sure you can configure it for high DPS. It is still a bit of a brick, so you can easily find your self getting kited to death. Also keep in mind a proteus gets to apply that damage primarily to the highest natural resist of many ships (kinetic/thermal).

So yea it's easy to run the numbers in EFT and conclude the proteus is OP. Go fly one first and then we will talk.

Also keep in mind, with the SP loss, and lack of ejecting, a proteus pilot has to pretty much go all in when fighting, since you are in brawling range.

So you're saying it's not OP? Lol


Not OP at all.

Post the fits of your OP proteus with stats, and I'll tell you why.


700 dps with 200II rails (800-ish with the drones) at nice range with 200k ehp mobility and the tackling trimmings. I fly this daily. Please tell me why its not OP and if you rly need the fit I ll send it to you but come on...
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-10-03 09:02:41 UTC
Darling Hassasin wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
So you say you have little to no experience with the Proteus, yet you call it OP.

Yes the Proteus can be fit with a huge buffer tank. Guess what you won't be doing with that fit. Yea damage. For one, your DPS will suffer. Then add to that, you can't shoot far past your nose. Then for the icing, you are a slow brick that will be lucky to catch anything and stay in range.

There is a reason many gallente blasterboats get fit for shield tanking. Armor tanking makes them too slow to apply their short range damage.

Sure you can configure it for high DPS. It is still a bit of a brick, so you can easily find your self getting kited to death. Also keep in mind a proteus gets to apply that damage primarily to the highest natural resist of many ships (kinetic/thermal).

So yea it's easy to run the numbers in EFT and conclude the proteus is OP. Go fly one first and then we will talk.

Also keep in mind, with the SP loss, and lack of ejecting, a proteus pilot has to pretty much go all in when fighting, since you are in brawling range.

So you're saying it's not OP? Lol


Not OP at all.

Post the fits of your OP proteus with stats, and I'll tell you why.


700 dps with 200II rails (800-ish with the drones) at nice range with 200k ehp mobility and the tackling trimmings. I fly this daily. Please tell me why its not OP and if you rly need the fit I ll send it to you but come on...


Bull, let's see the fit.
Sme Ematu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-10-03 09:40:57 UTC
OP can you explain what your goal with this thread is?

For me this whole thread can be summarized with this post of yours:

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
[quote=Nyancat Audeles]
...
I'd like to see a bit of a buff on two of the Tengu offensive subsystems
...

I have little if any experience with the Loki, Legion or Proteus unfortunately.



You give no reason why buffs are required except that you want them and make assumptions about ship strength that you have no experience with.
Minnie Ryder
Flippin DaBird Corporation 2
#28 - 2013-10-03 09:48:09 UTC
My issue with the t3s as they currently stand is mainly that t3s are supposed to be generalists, passable in many roles but not excellent at any one. Right now they're better than almost any t2 ship cruiser sized and below, and rival everything except attack BCs for pure dps output. That's not generalization, as in t3, but specializtion.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-10-03 10:05:59 UTC
Before t3 they need to rebalance Recons, pirate ships, and maybe even capitals (altough those coudl swap place with T3).

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2013-10-03 10:14:43 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
So you say you have little to no experience with the Proteus, yet you call it OP.

Yes the Proteus can be fit with a huge buffer tank. Guess what you won't be doing with that fit. Yea damage. For one, your DPS will suffer. Then add to that, you can't shoot far past your nose. Then for the icing, you are a slow brick that will be lucky to catch anything and stay in range.

There is a reason many gallente blasterboats get fit for shield tanking. Armor tanking makes them too slow to apply their short range damage.

Sure you can configure it for high DPS. It is still a bit of a brick, so you can easily find your self getting kited to death. Also keep in mind a proteus gets to apply that damage primarily to the highest natural resist of many ships (kinetic/thermal).

So yea it's easy to run the numbers in EFT and conclude the proteus is OP. Go fly one first and then we will talk.

Also keep in mind, with the SP loss, and lack of ejecting, a proteus pilot has to pretty much go all in when fighting, since you are in brawling range.

This is true. Proteus in covert config will get great DPS still, and a great buffer but it has no dronebay, no option to fit a cap booster if you want scram and web, it has no GTFO ability other than winning. Any newb in a 100k isk frigate can ruin you're day and there is nothing you can do about it.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#31 - 2013-10-03 11:53:41 UTC
The main issue with T3's are the insane tank they have which people try to protect with the it costs 600mil so they should..
so remove the insane tank and the high price tag and then they can look at rebalancing them with versatility in mind at a reasonable price

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Koalabog1
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-10-03 12:08:28 UTC
Minnie Ryder wrote:
My issue with the t3s as they currently stand is mainly that t3s are supposed to be generalists, passable in many roles but not excellent at any one. Right now they're better than almost any t2 ship cruiser sized and below, and rival everything except attack BCs for pure dps output. That's not generalization, as in t3, but specializtion.


My understanding of the different tech levels is
T1 Generic hulls that can do just about anything
T2 Specialised hull that can do 1 thing really well
T3 Specializable hulls that you CAN specialize into a role or do 2-3 things at a time, if you choose to specialise a T3 it should outperfom a T2 but if its just say a probing combat ship its not much better then HAC's
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#33 - 2013-10-03 12:47:04 UTC
In my opinion, there are adjustments necessary, however of relatively 'small' nature. In general, they require a good chunk of SP to be the ... 'Eierlegende Wollmilchsau' how we call it here, but it can't stay the way that with skilling one cruiser to V and then a bunch of subsystems that are Rank 1 to V to get a ship that can do all the stuff all other Advanced Cruisers can do without the need to skill all these advanced cruiser skills.

What might be interesting would be a split bonus on every subsystem? Right now you basically need Strategic Cruiser at 1 and focus on the subsystems, since Strat Cruiser only gives overheating bonuses. If people would be pushed to actually put effort into this skill, too, they might be in a way better spot regarding the investment.

For example, the Warfare Processor would not give '2% per Subsystem level', but '1% per Subsystem Level AND 1% per Strategic Cruiser Level'.
The Emergent Locus Analyzer could grant '5% Scan-Strength per Subsystem Level' and '5% Scan-Strength per Strategic Cruiser Level'.

This would also have an impact on their performance after they lose a ship, since Strat Cruiser will be the highest ranking skill. And will affect the WHOLE performance of the ship. Risk vs Reward, you know.





Another way would be slightly adjusting the effectiveness of certain modules.

For example the Defensive Subsystems:

  • A reduction from 10% Armor / Shield HP per Level to 7.5% would be reasonable.
  • A range modifier on the 'Logi' Subsystem would be desirable. No need to get into Logi-Cruiser repranges, but something more than 6km would be sweet. For example a 40% increase to range per level, topping out at tripple the normal range. Would end up at ~18km for medium t2 logi modules and 25km at large t2 logi modules.

    • For Electronics, i feel like the specialised roles should have an advantage over the T3 line.
    For Recons this is usually true since they get bonuses to two ewar-systems (except caldari), but for example a Cov-Ops frig should still be the better probing ship than a T3 can ever be. A reduction of the scan strength from 10% per level to 7.5% per level seems reasonable.


    The Legion needs a better Covert-Ops Subsystem. There is no point in ever fitting Lasers to it. Giving it 4 Missile Hardpoints would be a start. Giving it 2 Turret Hardpoints and a 25% Damage Bonus per level would be a start. Giving it 25mbit and 50m³ bay would be a start. Just some slight improvement, cause right now a covert legion is laughable.
    Syrias Bizniz
    some random local shitlords
    #34 - 2013-10-03 12:51:46 UTC
    Koalabog1 wrote:
    Minnie Ryder wrote:
    My issue with the t3s as they currently stand is mainly that t3s are supposed to be generalists, passable in many roles but not excellent at any one. Right now they're better than almost any t2 ship cruiser sized and below, and rival everything except attack BCs for pure dps output. That's not generalization, as in t3, but specializtion.


    My understanding of the different tech levels is
    T1 Generic hulls that can do just about anything
    T2 Specialised hull that can do 1 thing really well
    T3 Specializable hulls that you CAN specialize into a role or do 2-3 things at a time, if you choose to specialise a T3 it should outperfom a T2 but if its just say a probing combat ship its not much better then HAC's



    I feel it's okay to have a T3 outperform a HAC in terms of EHP and so on, but my main problem is, for the HAC to be as effective as it can get, you need HAC V which is a Rank 6 skill. The Subsystems of the T3 are all Rank 1 skills and open a wide spectrum for the pilot. He can do Recon stuff, HAC stuff, Command Ship stuff, Cov Ops stuff without the need to put a single skillpoint into these ships. He ends with 'A Rank V' skill (5x1, you know) that will obsolete 2(or 3 if you count logi) rank 6 skills, a rank 4 skill, and a Rank 8 skill.
    Onictus
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #35 - 2013-10-03 13:14:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
    Syrias Bizniz wrote:

    My understanding of the different tech levels is
    T1 Generic hulls that can do just about anything
    T2 Specialised hull that can do 1 thing really well
    T3 Specializable hulls that you CAN specialize into a role or do 2-3 things at a time, if you choose to specialise a T3 it should outperfom a T2 but if its just say a probing combat ship its not much better then HAC's


    I feel it's okay to have a T3 outperform a HAC in terms of EHP and so on, but my main problem is, for the HAC to be as effective as it can get, you need HAC V which is a Rank 6 skill. The Subsystems of the T3 are all Rank 1 skills and open a wide spectrum for the pilot. He can do Recon stuff, HAC stuff, Command Ship stuff, Cov Ops stuff without the need to put a single skillpoint into these ships. He ends with 'A Rank V' skill (5x1, you know) that will obsolete 2(or 3 if you count logi) rank 6 skills, a rank 4 skill, and a Rank 8 skill.



    Except that they don't if you fly around with all rank 1 or 2 subs your have little more than a battlecruiser with generous fitting options. All of these stats that everyone keeps quoting around with level 5 subs.

    I'm still waiting to see this 800DPS 200keHP rail proteus fit. He's best I can manage 176,000 with a T2 fit that includes three trimarks. 747 DPS w/drones. Unsurprisingly, it moves at a whopping 451m/s

    So far as it goes
    You NEVER take a T3 over a logi, because the range on the logi subs is so pathtetic as to be near useless outside of a couple edge cases (WH reps, and blops drops) otherwise a T3 logi can barely rep across the distance of a warp bubble
    Recons point/web/ECM better than the T3s do across the board, no T3 gets a fuel bonus, no T3 gets a cyno cycle bonus, the loki gets no painter bonus. You only use T3's in a recon roll is a fleet environment, they can tank, recons....not so much.
    HACs, well, that sucks, I said when they were doing the hac reballance that they didn't go far enough, I'm still holding to that
    There is no T3 that can simulate a HICTOR it simply doesn't exist.
    Syrias Bizniz
    some random local shitlords
    #36 - 2013-10-03 13:27:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
    Onictus wrote:
    Syrias Bizniz wrote:

    My understanding of the different tech levels is
    T1 Generic hulls that can do just about anything
    T2 Specialised hull that can do 1 thing really well
    T3 Specializable hulls that you CAN specialize into a role or do 2-3 things at a time, if you choose to specialise a T3 it should outperfom a T2 but if its just say a probing combat ship its not much better then HAC's


    I feel it's okay to have a T3 outperform a HAC in terms of EHP and so on, but my main problem is, for the HAC to be as effective as it can get, you need HAC V which is a Rank 6 skill. The Subsystems of the T3 are all Rank 1 skills and open a wide spectrum for the pilot. He can do Recon stuff, HAC stuff, Command Ship stuff, Cov Ops stuff without the need to put a single skillpoint into these ships. He ends with 'A Rank V' skill (5x1, you know) that will obsolete 2(or 3 if you count logi) rank 6 skills, a rank 4 skill, and a Rank 8 skill.



    Except that they don't if you fly around with all rank 1 or 2 subs your have little more than a battlecruiser with generous fitting options. All of these stats that everyone keeps quoting around with level 5 subs.

    I'm still waiting to see this 800DPS 200keHP rail proteus fit. He's best I can manage 176,000 with a T2 fit that includes three trimarks. 747 DPS w/drones. Unsurprisingly, it moves at a whopping 451m/s

    So far as it goes
    You NEVER take a T3 over a logi, because the range on the logi subs is so pathtetic as to be near useless outside of a couple edge cases (WH reps, and blops drops) otherwise a T3 logi can barely rep across the distance of a warp bubble
    Recons point/web/ECM better than the T3s do across the board, no T3 gets a fuel bonus, no T3 gets a cyno cycle bonus, the loki gets no painter bonus. You only use T3's in a recon roll is a fleet environment, they can tank, recons....not so much.
    HACs, well, that sucks, I said when they were doing the hac reballance that they didn't go far enough, I'm still holding to that
    There is no T3 that can simulate a HICTOR it simply doesn't exist.




    Yeah, funny how people are talking about All V for Strat cruisers so the skill-benefits are maxed out, huh? Come on, it's RANK 1 skills, if you don't put in those 3 days per skill, then you wouldn't put in those 21 days per skill for a HAC or Recon, would you?

    Also, towards that Proteus:

    I might not achieve the 200k EHP, ...


    [Proteus, Rails]
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
    Damage Control II
    1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
    Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
    Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

    Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
    Republic Fleet Warp Scrambler
    Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

    250mm Railgun II, Javelin M
    250mm Railgun II, Javelin M
    250mm Railgun II, Javelin M
    250mm Railgun II, Javelin M
    250mm Railgun II, Javelin M
    250mm Railgun II, Javelin M

    Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
    Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
    Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I

    Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
    Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
    Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
    Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
    Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors

    Hammerhead II x5




    But heated this thing does 1036 dps.
    176k EHP
    499m/s

    Implants used:

    Slave Set,

    Hybrid 5% (20m ISK)


    ~~~


    I know, i know, faction fit!!1 So daring... and slaves! So ... ridicoulous!


    Throw in some Links, and you can 'scramkite' at ~17km preheat, , where you will shoot Antimatter with 899 dps before heat. You're welcome!




    Edit:


    Towards the last block of text, i think you're right, especially about the logi stuff. The bonus is right now pretty wasted. I suggested giving it at least *some* range.
    Derath Ellecon
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #37 - 2013-10-03 13:30:43 UTC
    Darling Hassasin wrote:
    700 dps with 200II rails (800-ish with the drones) at nice range with 200k ehp mobility and the tackling trimmings. I fly this daily. Please tell me why its not OP and if you rly need the fit I ll send it to you but come on...



    Bulls**t. The only way you are getting those numbers is by making a brick of a proteus and fitting a full head of Slaves. And your tracking is just **** poor. Yet another "looks good on paper" concepts.

    Minnie Ryder wrote:
    My issue with the t3s as they currently stand is mainly that t3s are supposed to be generalists, passable in many roles but not excellent at any one. Right now they're better than almost any t2 ship cruiser sized and below, and rival everything except attack BCs for pure dps output. That's not generalization, as in t3, but specializtion.


    And as a generalization your assessment is inaccurate. T3's are definitely not better than pretty much all of the specialist cruisers (logistics etc). An Exequror makes a better logistics platform than a Proteus.

    In terms of combat ability I don't have an issue with their state given (which flows to the next point)

    Harvey James wrote:
    The main issue with T3's are the insane tank they have which people try to protect with the it costs 600mil so they should..
    so remove the insane tank and the high price tag and then they can look at rebalancing them with versatility in mind at a reasonable price


    Well no. IMO their tanks are justified as they are the ONLY ships that require me to retrain the same skill again when it explodes, which by the way is more likely since the ejection change was implemented.

    Let's say the way I am mapped it is going to take me 4 days to retrain a subsytem back to 5. So I can go out in a T1/T2 cruiser all day long, lose as many as I want. Or more appropriately I can afford.

    At 4 days retrain if I lose more than 1 proteus a week I would be going backwards in my training.
    Derath Ellecon
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #38 - 2013-10-03 13:37:29 UTC
    Syrias Bizniz wrote:

    I feel it's okay to have a T3 outperform a HAC in terms of EHP and so on, but my main problem is, for the HAC to be as effective as it can get, you need HAC V which is a Rank 6 skill. The Subsystems of the T3 are all Rank 1 skills and open a wide spectrum for the pilot. He can do Recon stuff, HAC stuff, Command Ship stuff, Cov Ops stuff without the need to put a single skillpoint into these ships. He ends with 'A Rank V' skill (5x1, you know) that will obsolete 2(or 3 if you count logi) rank 6 skills, a rank 4 skill, and a Rank 8 skill.



    Yea Rank 1 skills that you have to keep retraining if you die.

    So yea, it will take an average of a month to train HAC from 1-5. It will take on average about 45 days to train a strat cruiser from 0 to all 5 (ship and sub skills).

    And then every 5 or so ship losses will be like I forgot to put any skills in my queue for almost a month.
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #39 - 2013-10-03 13:41:55 UTC
    doesn't really justify anything it's an odd mechanic that should be removed but odds are they would increase the training time to compensate which makes more sense really

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    Derath Ellecon
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #40 - 2013-10-03 13:45:45 UTC
    Syrias Bizniz wrote:
    Failed fit.


    Yea, sure you can kite with that fit. You'd get owned by just about anything with a half competent pilot. Your speed WITH the AB is about the same as a vagabond before any prop mod is activated. Good luck catching anything. And that nice .032 tracking with Javelin. How many shots are you going to land on anything moving?

    Not to mention even with billions of implants in your head you can't hit the 200EHP claim.
    Previous page123Next page