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[Post-Rubicon] T3 Rebalance Discussion
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1 - 2013-10-03 00:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
This is just an open thread for proposed T3 rebalance discussion (post-Rubicon).
The question is: With all the rebalancing that's gone on (and continues), is a T3 rebalance even needed? And if so, to what extent?

Other ships in the same class have similar base power grids, resistances and sport the ability to do similar damage as well as run battleship-class engines, shield extenders, armor plating, batteries, boosters and armor repairers (these are not exclusive to T3s)

Are there any particular T3 subsystems for any race that are overpowered or underpowered? Perhaps a few buffs are actually in order. Comments and suggestions welcome.
.....

Thanks to Rroff and Derath for their feedback.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Karma Codolle
Chimera Research and Development
#2 - 2013-10-03 01:03:55 UTC
Why do they need these changes?

You give no reason why other than because you want them.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3 - 2013-10-03 01:10:33 UTC
Karma Codolle wrote:
Why do they need these changes?
You give no reason why other than because you want them.

Fair question. I actually fly a Tengu and would prefer not to have any changes, but that's probably an unrealistic expectation. The armor-tanked Proteus and Legion are quite insane (ridiculously so with a set of Slaves), and the fact that you can run around with a battleship class afterburner, large shield extender or armor plating and large shield booster or armor repairer are the major sticking points. I do not agree with the opinion that the Tengu is overpowered mainly for the reason that 25% of it's damage is Kinetic-based and the other 3 races have multiple damage types.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2013-10-03 01:12:41 UTC
So...what does the Loki gain once you take away it's armour subsystem?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#5 - 2013-10-03 01:23:52 UTC
Don't see any need to significantly nerf their tank, dps or fitting - these are not what I call bread and butter ships.

They do need in some cases relevant trade offs however especially in the case of what are essentially battlecruiser class sub-systems bigger sig penalties on defensive sub-systems that increase hp to base BC stats for instance (and agility penalties for the armor ones).

(I'm not a fan of leaving a gap for tech3 BCs as there would be too much overlap and water down the uniqueness of these ships).
Fayral
Nano Currency
Yeet. Pray. Love.
#6 - 2013-10-03 01:25:31 UTC
Why would you force them into one tank type. They are meant to be fit many ways.

Armor web loki's and armor jamgu's are a thing!
Eli Green
The Arrow Project
#7 - 2013-10-03 01:26:42 UTC
using this logic, since the loki can go both armour or shield, it means it would only have structure which is crap.

wumbo
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-10-03 01:49:26 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
This is just an open thread for proposed T3 rebalance discussion (post-Rubicon).
Some initial suggestions (credit to those that originally proposed them):

  • An across the board power grid nerf to all engineering subsystems
  • Remove armor from the Loki/Tengu and shields from Legion/Proteus (since the T3s are derived from Sleeper technology)

    • The reasons for these are to reduce the insane tank setups on some of the strategic cruisers and avoid the ability to easily run battleship-class engines and other modules without really having to sacrifice combat capability.


    First off, dropping shields or armor would do nothing to their tanks. Have you seen how fast a Proteus' shields fall? Or how fast a Tengu pops once it hits armor? They effectively have little of their respective amounts to begin with.

    And easily fitting a 100mn AB is misleading. First off it is expensive. You have to make sacrifices in other areas (they typically have lowish dps). And they are not the pwnage machines people think they are, especially with the rebalancing of T3 links.

    If you want to nerf the 100mn ab fits you can do that without nerfing all the engineering subs.

    Not to mention there are non-T3 Cruisers that have viable 100mn AB fits as well.

    Bottom line is a lot has happened with rebalancing, and the need to nerf T3's into the ground has diminished somewhat as a result.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #9 - 2013-10-03 01:57:26 UTC
    Derath Ellecon wrote:
    First off, dropping shields or armor would do nothing to their tanks. Have you seen how fast a Proteus' shields fall? Or how fast a Tengu pops once it hits armor? They effectively have little of their respective amounts to begin with.

    And easily fitting a 100mn AB is misleading. First off it is expensive. You have to make sacrifices in other areas (they typically have lowish dps). And they are not the pwnage machines people think they are, especially with the rebalancing of T3 links.

    If you want to nerf the 100mn ab fits you can do that without nerfing all the engineering subs.

    Not to mention there are non-T3 Cruisers that have viable 100mn AB fits as well.

    Bottom line is a lot has happened with rebalancing, and the need to nerf T3's into the ground has diminished somewhat as a result.

    Yes I have, hence the open thread for discussion. These are all excellent points which I'll add above.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Zakeus Djinn
    Who Called In The Fleet
    #10 - 2013-10-03 02:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakeus Djinn
    I made some small suggestions for Tech 3 subsystems, what do you think?

    (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3617129#post3617129 because the forum seems to be having issues with my link)
    Lyra Gerie
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #11 - 2013-10-03 02:28:43 UTC
    Likely lower their bonuses on each sub-system by about 33-50% while providing more sub-systems and adding a racial cruiser bonus that is very low (something like 2.5% per level).

    This puts T3's exactly where CCP wants them, highly versatile with plenty of small bonuses but not enough of something to overshadow T2 ships specialties.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #12 - 2013-10-03 02:33:47 UTC
    Lyra Gerie wrote:
    Likely lower their bonuses on each sub-system by about 33-50% while providing more sub-systems and adding a racial cruiser bonus that is very low (something like 2.5% per level).

    This puts T3's exactly where CCP wants them, highly versatile with plenty of small bonuses but not enough of something to overshadow T2 ships specialties.

    You do realize that a 33-50% nerf to subsystems is fairly substantial, yes? I'm not sure I'd want to fly the end result, but that's just my initial reaction. I'm curious about your racial cruiser bonus idea, though. What did you have in mind?

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Nyancat Audeles
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #13 - 2013-10-03 03:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
    Funny how you say Legion is "overpowered" but Tengu is "just fine".

    That was a funny joke!

    EDIT: I'll expand on my answer.

    Compare the Tengu to the Legion for missions. Compare the Tengu to the Legion for PvP. The Tengu can tank far more, can deal much more DPS - regardless of damage type. At least Tengu can switch between damage types - Legion is stuck with lasers and a subpar, virtually useless HAM subsystem. (No HAM Legion configuration can do as much DPS or tank as a HAM Tengu for the same price for PvE).

    There are a LOT more reasons but it's a bit late here and I'm too tired to type it out. I'm sure other people will come along and mention them.

    I do agree, however, that the need to nerf T3's has diminished, if not vanished.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #14 - 2013-10-03 03:44:02 UTC
    Nyancat Audeles wrote:
    Funny how you say Legion is "overpowered" but Tengu is "just fine".

    That was a funny joke!

    EDIT: I'll expand on my answer.

    Compare the Tengu to the Legion for missions. Compare the Tengu to the Legion for PvP. The Tengu can tank far more, can deal much more DPS - regardless of damage type. At least Tengu can switch between damage types - Legion is stuck with lasers and a subpar, virtually useless HAM subsystem. (No HAM Legion configuration can do as much DPS or tank as a HAM Tengu for the same price for PvE).

    There are a LOT more reasons but it's a bit late here and I'm too tired to type it out. I'm sure other people will come along and mention them.

    I do agree, however, that the need to nerf T3's has diminished, if not vanished.

    In fairness, I said the tank on the Legion and Proteus is insane. I would say the Proteus is overpowered, followed by the Tengu and Legion (basically I'm agreeing). Don't forget that the Tengu is also stuck with a subpar hybrid system (not useless, just not great). The Tengu can only come close to the Proteus if it utilizes HAMs with kinetic missiles. The Proteus can also dish out well over 500 dps in a Covert Ops configuration (neither the Tengu or Proteus can even come remotely close to that).

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Nyancat Audeles
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #15 - 2013-10-03 03:52:47 UTC
    Arthur Aihaken wrote:
    Nyancat Audeles wrote:
    Funny how you say Legion is "overpowered" but Tengu is "just fine".

    That was a funny joke!

    EDIT: I'll expand on my answer.

    Compare the Tengu to the Legion for missions. Compare the Tengu to the Legion for PvP. The Tengu can tank far more, can deal much more DPS - regardless of damage type. At least Tengu can switch between damage types - Legion is stuck with lasers and a subpar, virtually useless HAM subsystem. (No HAM Legion configuration can do as much DPS or tank as a HAM Tengu for the same price for PvE).

    There are a LOT more reasons but it's a bit late here and I'm too tired to type it out. I'm sure other people will come along and mention them.

    I do agree, however, that the need to nerf T3's has diminished, if not vanished.

    In fairness, I said the tank on the Legion and Proteus is insane. I would say the Proteus is overpowered, followed by the Tengu and Legion (basically I'm agreeing). Don't forget that the Tengu is also stuck with a subpar hybrid system (not useless, just not great). The Tengu can only come close to the Proteus if it utilizes HAMs with kinetic missiles. The Proteus can also dish out well over 500 dps in a Covert Ops configuration (neither the Tengu or Proteus can even come remotely close to that).

    True. Proteus seems most OP in terms of PvP performance. But even though the Legion can hold a massive tank, I don't think it's necessarily overpowered anymore after the boost nerf - it provides a reasonable DPS:TANK ratio, in line with Amarr philosophy.
    Karma Codolle
    Chimera Research and Development
    #16 - 2013-10-03 04:08:37 UTC
    Lyra Gerie wrote:
    Likely lower their bonuses on each sub-system by about 33-50% while providing more sub-systems and adding a racial cruiser bonus that is very low (something like 2.5% per level).

    This puts T3's exactly where CCP wants them, highly versatile with plenty of small bonuses but not enough of something to overshadow T2 ships specialties.



    Shouldn't a t3 be greater than a t2?

    So shouldn't they overshadow t2 specialties.

    They have greater risks to losing them after all than t2's. The loss in skill points and how expensive they are. If they were barely better than a t2 i'd see no reason risking all that
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #17 - 2013-10-03 04:34:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
    Nyancat Audeles wrote:
    True. Proteus seems most OP in terms of PvP performance. But even though the Legion can hold a massive tank, I don't think it's necessarily overpowered anymore after the boost nerf - it provides a reasonable DPS:TANK ratio, in line with Amarr philosophy.

    People tend to forget that everything is a tradeoff, too. To get that kind of tank you're usually making yourself reliant on external support to some degree I'd like to see a bit of a buff on two of the Tengu offensive subsystems:
    • Covert Reconfiguration: Increase the rate of fire to 7.5% and add +5% explosion radius
    • Rifling Launcher Pattern: Add +5% explosion radius and +5% explosion velocity

    I have little if any experience with the Loki, Legion or Proteus unfortunately.


    Karma Codolle wrote:
    Shouldn't a t3 be greater than a t2?
    So shouldn't they overshadow t2 specialties.

    They have greater risks to losing them after all than t2's. The loss in skill points and how expensive they are. If they were barely better than a t2 i'd see no reason risking all that

    Yes and yes. And while players hate the "expensive" argument, you'd certainly see a lot of expectations for buffs to HACs if the price more than doubled.

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Alvatore DiMarco
    Capricious Endeavours Ltd
    #18 - 2013-10-03 05:21:22 UTC
    Loki pilot, checking in.

    Overall, the Loki's a pretty nice ship if you don't mind a few of the subsystems resulting in a somewhat hideous ship. It's not as bad or as bizzare as most of the useful Proteus combos though, so it's liveable.

    If we're going to talk about changes to make subsystems more relevant, I'd like to see our split weapon subsystem get the same kind of treatment that the Fleet Scythe got. The current version reflects the old, outdated, bad version of Minmatar split weapons and needs to be updated to the new, useful, generally-good version.

    Also give the Legion's covops subsystem some kind of damage bonus like every other T3's covops subsystem has. A cloaky legion is an abysmal joke of no-dps hilarity compared to.. well.. any of the other T3s.
    Arthur Aihaken
    CODE.d
    #19 - 2013-10-03 05:49:31 UTC
    Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
    Overall, the Loki's a pretty nice ship if you don't mind a few of the subsystems resulting in a somewhat hideous ship. It's not as bad or as bizzare as most of the useful Proteus combos though, so it's liveable.

    You haven't seen the CPU subsystem on the Tengu, have you? Lol

    I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
    Derath Ellecon
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #20 - 2013-10-03 06:57:18 UTC
    So you say you have little to no experience with the Proteus, yet you call it OP.

    Yes the Proteus can be fit with a huge buffer tank. Guess what you won't be doing with that fit. Yea damage. For one, your DPS will suffer. Then add to that, you can't shoot far past your nose. Then for the icing, you are a slow brick that will be lucky to catch anything and stay in range.

    There is a reason many gallente blasterboats get fit for shield tanking. Armor tanking makes them too slow to apply their short range damage.

    Sure you can configure it for high DPS. It is still a bit of a brick, so you can easily find your self getting kited to death. Also keep in mind a proteus gets to apply that damage primarily to the highest natural resist of many ships (kinetic/thermal).

    So yea it's easy to run the numbers in EFT and conclude the proteus is OP. Go fly one first and then we will talk.

    Also keep in mind, with the SP loss, and lack of ejecting, a proteus pilot has to pretty much go all in when fighting, since you are in brawling range.
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