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Caldari and Minmatar Unite in a new Federation - Capsuleer and Non-Capsuleer alike

Author
Corlus Ademinan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-10-02 03:47:14 UTC
Perhaps I too heavily relied on an emotional plea in this situation and did not fully examine the practical and logical approach. Changing the entire makeup of half the alliances seen in the cluster may have been starting to boldly. Baby steps as they say might be the better choice.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2013-10-02 06:51:27 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Eran Mintor wrote:
Where's John Revenent when you need him.

Eran Mintor wrote:
Haven't seen John for some time but I'm sure he's still around.


Taishō Revenent is currently occupied with our Syndicate campaigns. He has neither the time nor inclination to get involved in Cal-Matari relations. That ship has long since sailed.

If you'd like to arrange a meeting with the Taishō on some other subject more relevant to our operations, such as direct trade, please have your proposal in written form sent to my inbox for review.


It is very COLD in SPACE.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Erica Dusette
Division 13
#23 - 2013-10-03 05:17:28 UTC
Well I do admit to often finding Brutor men somewhat attractive, contrast and all that, you know. Just quietly. But beyond that I am doubtful a union between our cultures would bring many benefits.

While I'm not that educated in politics I'm sure there's many legit reasons why we in the State find ourselves somewhat higher on the evolutionary chain that the Minmatar and I don't think we should mess that up by trying to play Bob.

In any event I'm happy in my corporation and generally detest known space and it's politics, so can't contribute to your efforts, but I do wish you luck in your endeavour, purely in the spirit of mutual capsuleerism.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#24 - 2013-10-03 06:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

It is very COLD in SPACE.


Actually, space is not cold at all.

Hot and cold are common generalizations for temperature, which is a property of matter. Space is the absence of matter. It has no temperature. This also translates to there being no heat loss by convection or conduction in space, which is commonly what's regarded as "cold", the loss of heat by contact with matter of a lower temperature (often water, air, or an object).

Radiating heat, the other method of experiencing 'cold' is also a very slow process in space without the aid of technology. In fact, depending on where you are in relation to the star, perhaps in the habitable zone, you may even be quite comfortable for a while due to incoming radiated heat from said star... at least until you die from a heat stroke for literally being out in the sunlight too long. Or, you may burn up if you're much closer, or very slowly freeze to death if you're farther away.

I suppose you weren't talking about any of this at all, and I am in fact a giant buzzkill who's probably had too much tea tonight.

Katrina Oniseki

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#25 - 2013-10-03 07:22:10 UTC
I was going to say something inappropriate (jokingly of course) but I will refrain out of respect for you, Ms. Oniseki. I wouldn't say you're a buzzkill, though.

-Eran
Etienne Saissore
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-10-03 11:17:50 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

Actually, space is not cold at all.

Hot and cold are common generalizations for temperature, which is a property of matter. Space is the absence of matter. It has no temperature. This also translates to there being no heat loss by convection or conduction in space, which is commonly what's regarded as "cold", the loss of heat by contact with matter of a lower temperature (often water, air, or an object).
Please contact us if you are interested in buying some thermodynamics books at very good price.
Cain Aloga
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#27 - 2013-10-07 17:54:04 UTC
I have long speculated that our two cultures, while different, share enough similarities between the two that an alliance, or at the very least mutual cooperation could not only be possible, but also could in fact be very beneficiary. It is a very well known fact the the State enjoy some of the most advanced technology in the cluster, which would greatly benefit the Republic, and I would argue that the Republic offers unique economic opportunities for the State in return.

This of course entirely speculative.

On the other hand, while however much I would desire a form of cooperation between the State and the Republic, I stand firmly opposed to the possibilities of a fully developed alliance between the two.

I support this initiative to improve relations, however I would be weary of gaining too much success.

While our warriors fight for our people's freedom, we in turn should fight for our people's prosperity.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-10-07 18:34:45 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Actually, space is not cold at all.

Hot and cold are common generalizations for temperature, which is a property of matter. Space is the absence of matter. It has no temperature. This also translates to there being no heat loss by convection or conduction in space, which is commonly what's regarded as "cold", the loss of heat by contact with matter of a lower temperature (often water, air, or an object).

Radiating heat, the other method of experiencing 'cold' is also a very slow process in space without the aid of technology. In fact, depending on where you are in relation to the star, perhaps in the habitable zone, you may even be quite comfortable for a while due to incoming radiated heat from said star... at least until you die from a heat stroke for literally being out in the sunlight too long. Or, you may burn up if you're much closer, or very slowly freeze to death if you're farther away.

I suppose you weren't talking about any of this at all, and I am in fact a giant buzzkill who's probably had too much tea tonight.

Oh, thank the gods! My shipment of pedantry arrived just in time!

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#29 - 2013-10-07 20:13:39 UTC
Well come and get it. It's clogging up everything else in my workspace!

Katrina Oniseki

Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
#30 - 2013-10-07 22:43:05 UTC
This again.

Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of KŌKAK, a Nugoeihuvi affiliate corporation.

Ollie Rundle
#31 - 2013-10-08 09:33:59 UTC
Good luck, Corlus.

When your motives are genuine finding common ground isn't nearly so hard as some blowhards seem to enjoy making it out to be.
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#32 - 2013-10-08 16:28:33 UTC
I would think a better use of Calamari dialogue would be to pressure your respective allies into negotiating a peace to existing conflicts, rather than aggravating or multiplying them by implying you are a club dedicated to stabbing your existing friends in the back.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2013-10-08 19:53:32 UTC
Andrea Okazon wrote:
I would think a better use of Calamari dialogue would be to pressure your respective allies into negotiating a peace to existing conflicts, rather than aggravating or multiplying them by implying you are a club dedicated to stabbing your existing friends in the back.



Possibly the most insightful post thus far in the thread.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#34 - 2013-10-09 02:48:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
Here am I about to swear banner to the State and I see this. Oh the class here. And the balls.

First off, there's a severe problem inside your patriotic juggernaut of a race and its culture. There is an obligation to the State. This obligation to serve rewards greatly and instils a sense of pride on behalf of the many.

And that is why it is pure poison to those truly Matari.

We barbaric even savage characters fly for ourselves and at most for our Tribes. While many state there is a Republic out there worth following, that Republic is headed by a number of Tribes many still take issue with. And people wonder why there is such in-fighting beyond Amarr/Ammatar and freedom fighter entities in the Republic.

People also wonder why we'd ever take issue with the Federation (as started to be witnessed in recent news) and why we will still steal their relief funding to this day to instead build battle fleets. The view of the Matari amongst Federation is actually not far from the nobler side of the Amarrians.

They aim to save us.

From who? Amarr? Ourselves?

What if we like our little savage traits, our wars, and our suffering underdeveloped culture/society? What if THAT ALONE is enough freedom to satisfy the majority of our kind?

You, the Caldari and the Gallente fail to truly understand us. Hostilities await you even under the banner of friendship. For your reception of us is truly flawed in failing to view us (by majority) as anything less than equals.

Sadly, and truly, the only ones who do really get us are those who aim to enslave us.

There is fine passion there, a kind of game played between predators for sport, or between star-crossed lovers pitted for dominance.

Learn yourself; your people, your worlds, your society, before you dare make the same mistake each of these societies have continued to make by assuming you understand and can quote the Minmatar.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2013-10-09 03:04:47 UTC
I have noticed that there are many Matari who will follow company policy to the letter, in return for food, money, health care and a future for their families.

You will, of course, never make a capsuleer grateful for that sort of stability, but there are plenty of baseliner Matari who yearn for it.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-10-09 03:33:50 UTC
Isis Dea wrote:

People also wonder why we'd ever take issue with the Federation (as started to be witnessed in recent news) and why we will still steal their relief funding to this day to instead build battle fleets. The view of the Matari amongst Federation is actually not far from the nobler side of the Amarrians.

They aim to save us.

From who? Amarr? Ourselves?

What if we like our little savage traits, our wars, and our suffering underdeveloped culture/society? What if THAT ALONE is enough freedom to satisfy the majority of our kind?



This isn't entirely correct. The overall goal of the Federation is to provide opportunity and opportunity alone for Matari from all walks of life. As soon as your documents are verified and you are entered into various Galnet databases you are on your own to either succeed or fail as your choices will dictate.

The Parentalist attitude that exists in the Empire certainly exists among individuals in the Federation, but the government as a whole doesn't operate that way. Think of the Federation as a homeless shelter for unfortunate Matari and other races. You're allowed to live here, but you are expected to figure out how to get your own food, a job, and better yourselves. If you're in real tough ****, the government will help you out, but don't expect to be able to live off of it.

We're not trying to save you from the Amarr or yourselves, your the one that's going to be doing the saving. In other words, we're not going to save you, we're merely going to give you the tools and opportunity for you to save yourself. Think about it like the Minmatar Rebellion. The Federation didn't send in direct military support, we gave you weapons, trained some of your troops, and let you handle it from there.

That is Gallente Individualism at it's finest. We're going to give you the building blocks, but it's up to you to actually build the tower.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#37 - 2013-10-09 12:13:49 UTC
Isis Dea wrote:
What if we like our little savage traits, our wars, and our suffering underdeveloped culture/society? What if THAT ALONE is enough freedom to satisfy the majority of our kind?


That wasn't true before the Amarr came, and I doubt it's true now. While I wouldn't presume to speak for the Minmatar, I question whether a capsuleer -- an elite within the elite, dedicated to a life of violence almost by necessity if not by ambition -- can speak for all those millions who are still without the most basic security of person, property and plenty.

I will call out anti-Minmatar racism and cultural imperialism wherever I see it; that is not the Federation I want. At the same time, so much of this criticism seems to centre on us not being nice enough.

We're your allies, not your mother. We are not here to make you feel good about yourself.
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#38 - 2013-10-09 20:14:51 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

This isn't entirely correct. The overall goal of the Federation is to provide opportunity and opportunity alone for Matari from all walks of life. As soon as your documents are verified and you are entered into various Galnet databases you are on your own to either succeed or fail as your choices will dictate.

The Parentalist attitude that exists in the Empire certainly exists among individuals in the Federation, but the government as a whole doesn't operate that way. Think of the Federation as a homeless shelter for unfortunate Matari and other races. You're allowed to live here, but you are expected to figure out how to get your own food, a job, and better yourselves. If you're in real tough ****, the government will help you out, but don't expect to be able to live off of it.

We're not trying to save you from the Amarr or yourselves, your the one that's going to be doing the saving. In other words, we're not going to save you, we're merely going to give you the tools and opportunity for you to save yourself. Think about it like the Minmatar Rebellion. The Federation didn't send in direct military support, we gave you weapons, trained some of your troops, and let you handle it from there.

That is Gallente Individualism at it's finest. We're going to give you the building blocks, but it's up to you to actually build the tower.


Why do you rage war against the Caldari then? What do you hope to gain?

You've outlined the very thing that would have offset the war long before it ever started.

Perhaps you need to stop, go back, and view exactly what your "Gallente individualism" entitles and the responsibilities of it as defined by your Federation. Somewhere, someone, is tacking on additional requirements.

And those requirements which cause conflict with the Caldari are the same that will cause conflict with those Matari I speak of.

Andrea Okazon wrote:

That wasn't true before the Amarr came, and I doubt it's true now. While I wouldn't presume to speak for the Minmatar, I question whether a capsuleer -- an elite within the elite, dedicated to a life of violence almost by necessity if not by ambition -- can speak for all those millions who are still without the most basic security of person, property and plenty.


The Amarr helped us wake up. Minmatar evolved into what it is at its core: Primal, savage, cunning, and a string of other traits that many societies consider barbaric. Yet they are sources of pride amongst a number of Matari, the new generations perhaps, who would cite the fleeing Minmatar as someone failing to embrace their roots or purposely choosing to forget them.

It is where the Elders got their manpower, it is where so many cared so little for developing the republic that they helped pass the trillions of relief funding into building war fleets.

Even now, little has changed.

Sure there are plenty who think this way isn't the right way. Should you be influenced by other societies or merely are lured by the promise of old oblivious ways that there isn't a world outside your home worlds and tribes (the peaceful ways of old), sooner than later I hope you do become enslaved and/or indoctrinated out of your roots.

For the stars consume and are unkind.

Meanwhile, we Matari who embrace the new way; we'll continue waking up, evolving, becoming into the one thing society fears most: the greatest predator.

For to us, this is as natural as breathing itself.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-10-09 21:06:47 UTC
Isis Dea wrote:


Why do you rage war against the Caldari then? What do you hope to gain?

You've outlined the very thing that would have offset the war long before it ever started.

Perhaps you need to stop, go back, and view exactly what your "Gallente individualism" entitles and the responsibilities of it as defined by your Federation. Somewhere, someone, is tacking on additional requirements.

And those requirements which cause conflict with the Caldari are the same that will cause conflict with those Matari I speak of.



We started waging war again with the Caldari for invading our home system and threatening our homeworld with total annihilation. So, that's easily justifiable, we're merely defending our people and our territory. However, the war continues because our President is profiting quite a bit from it, and I'd imagine the Caldari Megacorps are profiting from the fighting as well.

If the war ended, both countries would be in danger of a recession. Whether continuing a war for the sake of making money is a good or bad thing is a totally different debate.

And what would be these "additional requirements" you speak of?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#40 - 2013-10-09 22:05:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Isis Dea
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

We started waging war again with the Caldari for invading our home system and threatening our homeworld with total annihilation. So, that's easily justifiable, we're merely defending our people and our territory. However, the war continues because our President is profiting quite a bit from it, and I'd imagine the Caldari Megacorps are profiting from the fighting as well.

If the war ended, both countries would be in danger of a recession. Whether continuing a war for the sake of making money is a good or bad thing is a totally different debate.

And what would be these "additional requirements" you speak of?


Additional requirements being many of the accusations made by Caldari, where there is validity.

But in regards to the war, I'm going to have to remember that line. That's a classic.

Millions die all across the borders for mutual profit.

If that's what freedom awards you with, especially if you make it to the position of President or CEO, I question why I would want to support that. Sounds like you're using your rights to freedom in the most fabulous of examples.

"Embrace your individuality, folks, up until it comes time to make some money."

I like you. You really are scum.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...